No improvement in social mobility since the '70's and bright kids form a poor background are underachieving

[manchita]

Isn't it great living in a classless society?

It's like my working out an average height for kids, and declaring loftily that people should aim to be above that average height

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Marvellous point, UQD.

I agree UD that comparing schools in deprived areas with those outside is rather silly, the best option is to look at the highest achieving schools who operate in thsoe deprived areas (and there are some- can think of a great one in the nearest city- marked for closure of course ), and look at the differences they have to the toehr similarly palced lower achieving schools.

In some that may well be taching / facillities, in toehr community input or whatever.

Alawys agree with what you say re these things uqd

(resulting in me opting out of the system)

manchita you're spot on. was just correcting a few posts earlier that seemed to imply we are cming now with the 60s, we aren't. We are comparing people who went to school in the 60s/70s to those who went to school in the 70s/80s

sorry realied that post made me look as though i had something to do with the study, i don't

What was the reasoning behind getting rid of the sixth forms in schools in this city UQD? I wasn't brought up here, but in Doncaster - wher sixth forms in schools is still very much the norm? And why/how did some schools manage to retain theirs and others didn't?

Agree UQD, my dp used to teach in small town ex-mining communtiy school threatened variously with closure/takeover by bloody fundamentalist christians and was inspected all the time, did terrible things to staff and children alike.
And yet the school was actually excellent in some respects, pastorally fab and innovative and dedicated staff, it was in special measures because of test results. they didn't need to even bother visiting school they could have just checked the results

UQD Maybe the recent policy of 10per cent of children from every school having access to the g&t programme is a good thing then. On a previous discussion on MN people seemed concerned that it was unfair to the children in better schools

I wasn't brought up in Sheffield either - moved here in '94. So I've heard various versions of the sixth-form story. I gather it is linked to the city being Labour-controlled and the south-west having been a Tory constituency (later Lib Dem) but I still don't understand how that protected certain sixth-forms and not others.

I have no evidence for this, but I would put a significant amount of money on the majority of children on the G and T programme being from socio-economic groups A and B too. Or am I just too cynical for words?

I don't believe that the way university is paid for makes any difference to whether one goes or not! It is more coming from a background where you are not encouraged to go, where you have no grauates in your family, where you are at school with many other students who don't want to be learn- these are the things that put you off! This is where the importance of self confidence comes in.
I have many friends who went to university as mature students once they had worked out for themselves that education was the answer.

Just to answer Kathy - I was awarded a Government Assisted Place to study at an independent school.
Without wishing to blow my own trumpet, I am fairly confident I would have continued to do well in the state sector - given that I had already done well enough to secure my place . I think that a lower achieving child might have made better use of the place, and benefited more from the small class sizes. I'm not sure that throwing extra advantages to already-advantaged children improves social mobility.
Although obviously I would never wear brown in town now .

Im barry I think as you grew older maybe the school would have held you back? (unless outstanding state school)

seeker-you are an old cynic(but probably right)

Thank goodness you learned that ImBarryScott It was govt money well spent

Oh manchita I wouldn't have gone to uni if I hadn't got the full grant that was available in those days as I was a single parent at the time

In my area (same, I think, as ItWasOnlyAWintersTellus)some students don't even try to get into the higher achieving sixth form college because they perceive it being as full of rich kids - which it largely is! There are two 11-16 comprehensives that middle class parents don't send their children to but apply to the "better" over-subscribed schools. No doubt the same goes for the primary sector too - and even the pre-schools. If you are poor and live in a poor area you have to be really exceptional to get out of it and beat the middle class child who has had all the opportunities.

Are you in the city Lilymaid?

Do you actually know who I am (yikes) or do you just recognise my description of the schools set up?

Tellus -There is (I think) only one local authority with 11-16 village colleges! We have just been through the sixth form entrance business with DS2 who failed to get into the more illustrious one and who is now at an independent (see Maths results at the other college for the reason why we are bankrupting ourselves!)

Ah now, those results are broadly equivalent to those of the 11-18 secondary that I used to teach in (elsewhere).

UQD was saying that it is the 'nice' areas in his city that have schools with sixth forms, and the post 16 education is skewed to the vocational. I was just pointing out that here one sixth form college in particular is definitely seen as desirable academically.

copy of the report here for anyone who wants to read, sorry I didn't see a link for it posted already, apologies if it was

Tellus - I think it would be reasonable to expect one outstanding state sixth form in our town considering the population profile. It is supposed to be full of brainy (and middle class) people!

Do you all have any views on why internationally we are very low down in people bettering themselves educationally/socially?

Interesting question.
I think our class system is more pervasive than some European countries - partly for historical reasons (maybe because we weren't as wrecked by the Second World War as some, we didn't rebuild from scratch to the same degree?).
That must have an impact on aspiration.
And do more British people emigrate (to America, Australia etc) than elsewhere? That might mean that you get social mobility by leaving rather than staying here and moving up or down.