OK for people to be called Muhammad, but not a teddy bear (not in Sudan anyway)

[WendyWeber]

Poor woman

40 lashes???

I love the calm quote from the Muslim teacher at the school:

"I was just impressed that she got them to vote"

These are 6-7 year-olds, they chose the alternative names and they voted for Muhammad (also the name of the most popular boy in the class apparently) and most of the parents are fine with it - just one fanatic took offence from the sound of it.

MP - Your friend must be living in a secular country. Assuming that Quran is the literal word of God, everything that is clearly written in it has to be observed and the only points you can interpret are those that are not addressed in Quran and Hadith (words, example & teachings of Mohammad). There are

SueBaroo - Surely you realize that the Bible is written by different people, and that there were other Books written by others that didn't make it into the Bible. You may have personally chosen to believe that God somehow wrote those different accounts through Luke, Matthew, etc (although I cannot see how someone can believe in such a fantastically remote possibility for which there is no proof) but my understanding is that is not the generally accepted position of all Christians.

That is the worry MT. How bloody the muslim reformation may be. As it is the status quo suits a lot of people [especially men] so there is going to be an awful lot of resistance to it. On the other hand it is possible that there may be a slow, gradual reform led by intellectuals, I suppose. No idea really.
ABoC -Rowan Williams Sue? Wasn't aware he was a fan of the awful Alpha Course. His predecessor George Carey was, but I always thought RW was more intellectual.

Oops, don't know what happened there. Wanted to say:

MP - Your friend must be living in a secular country. Assuming that Quran is the literal word of God, everything that is clearly written in it has to be observed and the only points you can interpret are those that are not addressed in Quran and Hadith (words, example & teachings of Mohammad). And there are very few of those indeed.

For example, the Quran says you can beat your wife (lightly) if her offence is bad enough and if she doesn't come around after you kick her out of bed. You cannot 'interpret' this as "No, actually you should never beat your wife up". You can only interpret what 'light' beating means.

The detail to which Quran and Hadith combined talk about how a Muslim should live his life is quite impressive, and as such, room for interpretation is not great I'm afraid.

Yes CoteD'Azur it was one of the first church Fathers [Athanasius?] who decided which books went into the Bible and which were ignored. So you could say the book of Judas and the book of Mary Magdalene and the other books were the word of God too. I think it is fair to say many Christians believe the books in the bible are divinely inspired, but that can mean anything from being the direct word of God to simply being a human being's struggle to make sense of their environment and their idea of God.

Always pays to know the culture one moves to, this is a third world one after all she moved to! They have their OWN laws (much as they make me feel sick at times) so if they take an innocent mistake as a crime then it must be dealt with (I know the UK likes to be less harsh on immigrants when they make 'mistakes') but the point is
I can understand why the locals think 15 days in jail is too lenient! I think the protesters are mad for suggesting the death sentence, as no Muslim I know (asian/british) are that incompassionate, but surely deporting her would be good enough for them? Though sad for the school/children who have lost out on a potentially good teacher.

I respect her for saying through her son, she does not want anti muslim feelings to come from this case, because it is harsh to brush all muslims with the same view. People need to remember this is a third world country with hardened views.

It has nothing to do with poverty. The same laws apply in Saudi and every other Islamic state.

There's a protest this afternoon outside the Sudanese Embassy, organised by British Muslims :

Name: Protest to free British teacher jailed in Sudan!
Tagline: Release Gillian Gibbons!
Host: MPACUK and Emel magazine

Date: Saturday, December 1, 2007
Time: 2:00pm - 5:00pm
Location: Embassy of the Republic of the Sudan
Street: 3 Cleveland Row, St. James, London, SW1A 1DD
City/Town: London, United Kingdom

that is heartening.

Good on the British Muslim protesters!

Many of those Sundanese protesters did not know what they were protesting against. They are just doing as they are told.

My 4 month old baby has just received a new teddy-bear. I am thinking of naming him Mohammed, peace be upon him.

Good posts Blu

er - i mean good posts from last tuesday - read the thread upsidedown

ruty, no, even Rowan Williams supports Alpha. It's quite mainstream now, even in our local anglican middle-of-the-road parish.

Cote + ruty, this is probably the wrong thread to be going into a doctrine like the inspiration of scripture, but of course, yes, there are different understandings of that. I'm part of the fundamentalist, evangelical Christian belief, in that I believe all of it is 'God-breathed', but yes, it is a different doctrine to the giving of the Quran.

The Quran is purporting to be literally God's spoken words. The Bible is a collection of books - some poetry, some history, some letters and some 'apocalyptic' literature, which Christians believe to be God speaking through those different genres. The topic of the 'canon' or what is accepted as scripture is a different topic, also.

No, my friend does not live in an Islamic state, he lives in Surrey. However I don't think this or his beliefs make him or fuzzywuzzy or Pukka less of a representative muslim than somebody living in Iran, Sudan, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan.

If it were possible to interpret the Quran in only one way, all muslims would share the same beliefs, which quite clearly they don't. I also think needmorecoffee's post goes to show that what the Quran says is largely irrelevant when the people don't get to read it. This is ironic given that the Quran is supposed to be read in the original language and not translated, but by not being able to read the original, the illiterate necessarily have the Quran interpreted by somebody else.

Actually, thats wrong isn't it - isn't the Quran supposed to be spoken? OK, I give up. I am having a theological meltdown.

about Rowan Williams - feeling very disillusioned now.[although that started when he didn't give his support to Jeffrey John..]

Are all Alpha courses about speaking in tongues and being a good Christian while getting to keep your Porsche, or is it just the cottage pie element that Rowan Williams supports?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3703708.stm

about what language the Qu'ran should be read in....thats been a debate for hundreds of years too. I'm on the side that god's word is His word whatever language the Qu'ran is translated into (long as it is a good translation). God used Arabic cos the Prophet was arabic and he wouldn't have demanded it that everyone had to learn arabic in order to hear it.
But there are Saudi Scholars who disagree.
But there's also bickering over the translation, like the bit about a man may hit his wife. Some scholars say that the arabic word 'idribuhan' means to 'put forth' your hand as in striking while others say it means 'go forth' that the wife should be allowed to leave if she wants.
But as it is we get generations of men thinking its ok to beat their wifes.
Arabic speakers are in a minority in Islam.
This has happenend with the bible too, lots of bickering over the aramaic or hebrew or even latin.
Sometimes I think if the Qu'ran or Bible just said 'Be nice to each other' there would still be bickering.

being a good Christian while getting to keep your Porsche

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pmsl

didn't Jesus say it was easier to squish a camel through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven?
As my favourite parody site says

Brilliant needmorecoffee!

Rowan Williams has sold out big time.

I think we should just go with Bill and Ted, who said

BE MOST EXCELLENT TO EACH OTHER [GRIN]

Rowan Williams became ABofC. Not possible to become the head of whole communion and retain a completely liberal high church viewpoint, at least not in the public office.

'tis a broad church etc.