OK for people to be called Muhammad, but not a teddy bear (not in Sudan anyway)

[WendyWeber]

Poor woman

40 lashes???

I love the calm quote from the Muslim teacher at the school:

"I was just impressed that she got them to vote"

These are 6-7 year-olds, they chose the alternative names and they voted for Muhammad (also the name of the most popular boy in the class apparently) and most of the parents are fine with it - just one fanatic took offence from the sound of it.

What has happened to the teacher is horrific and wrong.
And Muslims around the world have been amongst the condemnation of her treatment.

It is clear that her trial was unfair - the bear had been replaced by another animal with a different name long before she was arrested, on the grounds that they should re-think due to sensitivity. So they could only have reached that verdict under pressure from clerics and those diven by political motives.

I feel sick to think of her, at this moment, in jail.

Feel pretty sick for poor Barry George wo also had a very unfair trial and has been in jail for 5 year for the murder of Jill Dando....

There is always going to be evil and corruption from all races.

I feel so sorry for the Muslims that will end up suffering for this, BNP field day.

The woman named a bear, or let her class do it, she made a mistake, she did not go in to a mosque and shoot children, she did not use the Qu'ran as toilet paper, she did not run naked through the streets shouting there is no Allah, she names a bear, she needs to come home, not be shot.

you have a point slim22. And Blu I do agree you have to try and see societies and cultures within a historical context. But Sudan still have to take responsibility for, for example, Darfur, rather than deny it is happening. And religious reform has to come from somewhere, though it is always a dangerous enterprise.

Just to clarify, and I know this isn't RL, but I am indeed a fundamentalist Christian who believes that every word in scripture is from God.

And while Fred Phelps is a raving lunatic who pickets funerals with his family, that really doesn't equate to a large mob baying for murder because they didn't like the name a woman gave to a teddy. And I am not defending Fred Phelps, btw.

But Slim is also talking about more contemporary happenings - we are complicit in the rise of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein, for example.

Sue. And yet you seem so...reasonable.

Oh yes...re darfur...responsibility...completely agree.

ruty, everyone is always so surprised, lol.

China is doing rather well that's my point exactly.

See, with your last remark, that's exactly where the problem lies.
The west is "reprehensible to the east" is just as sweeping ageneralisation as all muslims are terrorists.

Listen, I do not want to argue. I'm just trying to get the message accross that there are deeply entranched beliefs on both sides of the fence. Every story has 2 versions.
Selective amnesia about our common past is not going to help dialogue. And colonial history is central to what's going on today.

Evil white mischievious woman names teddy Mohamad is a very sad example of that.
Don't you understand these fanatics are thinking it's payback time?

Cote d'Azur I don't know why you thought I said Turkey and headscarves depend on EU talks. I didn't. I said a lot depends on EU talks and I meant in general in Turkey - whether it continues to uphold secular values, whether it lurches towards fundamentalism etc.

Whoever said any Anglican vicar will tell you the only way to God is through Jesus and Christianity, is simply wrong. No Anglican vicar I have ever met would say that, and I have met a few. I'm sure some would, but many wouldn't. It would be interesting to do a survey.

I was surprised by that too, LB. I've never known an Anglican vicar go down that road.

there are some though I assure you, look at the Alpha course for example.

Oh they do exist, for sure. Or I know a lot of people claiming to be vicars who are nothing of the sort.

Oh I didn't know the alpha course was something Anglicans did, I've always associated it with evangelical nutters.

God they make the catholic church look reasonable.

Oh that reminds me. Someone said earlier they were in Latin America where all the catholics were "believers". Yes and? A believer isn't the same as a fundamentalist, no educated catholic would tell you that the bible is the literal word of god. And even the less educated ones, most of them, know that the bible is so full of inconsistencies and contradictions, that it can't be literal.

The ABofC is a big fan of Alpha courses, and you can even go on specifically Roman Catholic ones. Not a fan myself, but I don't go a bundle on that charismatic tongue-talking stuff.

oh yes there's some happy clappy faction in the catholic church now, have just remembered, a friend of my sister's goes in for it

Slim22, WTF are you talking about?
I pointed out that the 'West' aka Nato - rightly - bombed and sent in thousands of soldiers to protect Muslims under attack and to force the Serbians to the negotiating table. Yes, the evil West was actually protecting Muslims. Why else was Milosovic on trial for war crimes? This had huge popular support, yet was there any applause for this from the Muslim world? Not that I heard. When the 'West' tried to oust the evil Taliban it was portrayed as evil oppression. Yet still Muslim posters say, 'What about Darfur'? Well, what about Darfur? What is the 'West' supposed to do? Because sure as hell, the minute any troops appear to fight the Sudanese government (which backs the genocide) all we will hear in the west is more about military oppression of the Muslim brotherhood. Hundreds of millions of pounds is poured into Sudan in the form of aid and charity from the West.
So what exactly do you mean about "About your remark on Kossovo (sic), do you apply the same thinking to all potential genocides or are you just being dismissive because Kossovars are muslims?"
So how exactly was I being 'dismissive'?

Sudan's president called the UN's attempt to increase the peacekeeping forces in Darfur "an attempt by the West to colonise Sudan."
Aid workers have been raped and beaten by government troops.
So tell me, why is this the fault of the 'West'? What is it the 'West' is supposed to do? You can only begin to imagine the reaction of the Muslim world if there was an attempt to overthrow the Sudanese government!

"Most Christians realize that the Bible is just a collection of stories. Most Muslims genuinely think that Koran is the literal word of God."

But, as far as I can see, the Koran is interpreted differently by different muslims, and as with Christianity, many doctrines/ideas were developed later. This may be just the opinion of one of the muslims I worked with, but he told me that as a muslim he was free to interpret the Koran as he liked, and he found the idea of having an organisation like the Church of England or the Catholic Church setting the rules very odd.

Where does your friend live MP? I doubt it is within an Islamic state, where he woul dnot be free to interpret it as he liked.

I posted this on a facbook group I am part of to lobby against 'honour' killings. Maybe it's the way I worded it, but I haven't had one response.

"Hi, Re this in your group description:

"Secondly, It needs to be noted that this group does not attack or place the blame on any religion or culture for these primitive acts."

I understand the need to beware of inciting bigots but I am confused as to how it is possible to separate the plight of women in some very specific cultures, such as Islam for example, who's situation is exacerbated, influenced and condoned by religious doctrine.

I am reading a lot of work by Hirsi Ali at the moment, and even though I remain balanced and sceptical about much, the fact that violence against women is a fundamental right of men within Islam, has to be a contributing element to this problem; and one that needs to be addressed as such.

All women (and indeed men) are victimised in all cultures, yet for many, in post-enlightenment societies where religions have been reformed, these have been tempered and legislated against within common law - offering ineffable human rights such as rights of appeal, freedom of speech and movement and of a right to en education - the importance of the individual over the doctrine, which if we sceptically analyse it, all religions are political forces to control the many for the benefit of the few.

Everyone seems to be waiting for Islamic reform, yet it is inconceivable that this will happen, as still the word of god is literally and violently defended, to the point of absurdity www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article2951262.ece

I am not sure that the rights of women can be served as well as they can be, without the question of the cultural influences that legitimise violence against women cannot be engaged with.

It seems we stand with placards, but are still gagged. It is an oft used phrase by racists and bigots to say, ?I call a spade a spade.? I think we, who hope to help women and, by proxy, their children and their men folk, to be brave enough to say this too.

We cannot be cowed for denouncing fascist and fundamentalist doctrines, by the fear of being denounced fascist ourselves.

I believe women are the link here. Millions of women around the world, and in the West too, are enslaved by their culture. That enslavement cannot be legitimised in the name of multiculturalism.

This is my dilemma. I hope some of you can help me make sense of this"

diving back in, I think religious go through stages (even though i'm only thinking of two).
Like I said before, Islam is 1400 years old. At the same 'age' Christians were killing non-Christians like they were going out of fsaion, burning women, burning heretics alive. Its a shameful few hundred years.
I expect as poor countries change (and this is going to sound hideously wetsern and colonial), grow more properous and educated then the nature of Islam will change too.
Extremism thrives in the uneducated. When I was in Kashmir most the of muslim population of small villages couldn't actually read. So they relied on Imams to tell them what the Qu'ran said or sent their kids to madrassas. Its the same in Sudan and other parts of Africa. Unless you have been there you really have no idea what subsitance living looks like or adherance to tradition. Then the people hear fantasy stories about 'the west' and how its hates Islam, how all women are prostitutes (why do you think white women are hassled in Morroco?). There's nothing to counter this stuff, the Sudanese Govt encourages it, its easier having your people hating the west than asking you where all the billions in oil revenue goes and why don't they have clean water. The 'west' is seen as the same scary other as we saw 'Russia' during the cold war. I remember all the nonesense stuff our media put out about life in Russia and of, they eat babies too. But now we know Russians are the same as us. To the average Sudanese, the west is the scary other and they really don't hear any truth about it and many genuinely believe that the US/UK is trying to destroy Islam. Thats what they have been told. Its no good bleating that they can 'look it up' because many don't have electrcity or running water and haven't heard the net even exists. Education is going to come gradually, as it did for medieval Europe. It can't be forced and unfortuanetly, extremists have much better weapons that days of old (made by us I believe and sold to the various Govts we all pretend to hate)
Simple statements about Islam or Africans nations really doesn't sum up what is going on there and the why's and wherefore's, anymore than it does in North Korea which is another awful place where the people believe total fantasy about the west. Not the poeple's fault, its what they have been told.
The teacher made a mistake and has been turned into a scapegoat. The Sudanese Govt is whipping people up or not countering the mob;s beliefs. She's best off out of there.

And I've forgotten my point in this rambling post but you can't point to any one cause for this mob, its a mixture of religion (as they believe it), politics, history, poverty, etc etc
I expect that there are some issues that could lead to mass hysteria and mobbing here too. We see small examples sometimes. Thankgoodness it isn't more. But the potential for mindless aggression is probably inmost humans. If the US Govt ever became a theocracy it would happen there too (creationism in schools anyone?)

Hirsi Ali say's moderate Muslim's are just as much to 'blame' (or more accuratly, need to take more responsibility)as fundamentalists, as they purpetuate the status quo abd do not challenge teh system from outside - knowing hiw dangerous it si to do so from within Islamic states.

But I'm not sure ifI would be brave enough to do this. Look how bloody the reformation was - does the world have to go through this with Islam now for it to reach its reform?

Very interesting thread. Ridiculous situation (though I agree that the lady in qu was extremely naive/daft to go this route in Sudan).

Where is Peacedove BTW?Surely he should be here by now?

and Hirsi Ali has a fatwa on her and to be guarded 24/7 for even suggesting that Islam needs reform.

I'd be interested in what you think of women like Hirsi Ali, Pukka? And other Muslim women you know. have you read her books? Are you allowed to?