Woman to have baby taken away at birth...

[SharpMolarBear]

because she is likely to suffer from Munschausen's syndrome by proxy

Oh my goodness, I've been avoiding reading this thread because it makes me feel sick and angry to the core, but I'm so glad I just looked now.
I can not believe this is 2007, it is insane, and the behaviour currently adopted by the authorities is barbaric.

Here would be a good place to start a petition, but I have no idea what it should say. If anyone has any ideas then please post. Maybe someone more organised and articulate than me could take that up??? If not we should agree on wording and then I can sort it. They take a couple of days to accept an application, so we need to get a move on.

I really hope that things turn out well for you and little Mollie.

I'm sorry, I spelt your baby's name wrong, Molly. x

Hello,

I've just read the thread through properly. Thank you for all the support, and sorry if I've caused upset - it seems to have gotten a bit heated at times.

I'm repeating myself a little here I think - but from what I've read a lot seems to have been made about whether or not people have had access to all the facts. For as much as it is worth, you have my word that I am not hiding anything.

All the journalists, legal folk and MP's have also had full access to documentation in my possession. I don't post those documents online because they contain highly sensitive information about people other than me.

I am not, definitely, absolutely, not attacking the child protection system - or the people who work in it. I do feel though that some changes would be helpful - for everyone, not just parents. For example - interviews between social workers and parents/others could be recorded. From my limited experience this would eliminate a great deal of contention and frustration over subsequent reports.

I appreciate greatly all the posts that have been made here by people who have a professional role in this system. Hearing other people's views really helps at the moment. One of the things I find incredibly difficult is just how hard it is to get a straight answer to questions. Your experience is invaluable, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to read about it. I would just ask that it is remembered that just because something "should" happen doesn't mean that it "does" happen. Nor because one has experienced something being done in a such a way does it mean that it is always done in that way.

I believe that the vast majority of social workers are genuinely caring and empathetic individuals who honestly seek to provide help and support to people who are really struggling at the margins of society. However I also believe that too often they are abandoned in a poorly staffed, poorly resourced and poorly trained system which really can't cope with the demands being made of it. Decisions made in situations such as mine are so immense as to deny true comprehension. Surely it must be in everyone's interest that we ensure the professionals and the system responsible are as transparent, informed and rigorous as is possible? The system quite rightly and necessarily wields a vast amount of power - but for it to do so without due scrutiny and humility often ends up feeling, and being perceived as being, abusive in itself.

Thanks,

Fran

(An odd addendum: a while back on this thread it was stated that there is no cure for personality disorder and that it does have a dramatic effect upon an individual's ability to parent. Whilst I've no desire to kick off a whole other highly contentious debate this simply is not true according to research of the last few years. Please look for "Personality Disorder: No longer a diagnosis of exclusion" from the Dept. of Health or at www.borderlineuk.co.uk for more information)

Bump

Fran please do not be sorry that your situation has caused heated (but healthy!) debate on here-that's what Mumsnet is about!

Your eloquence & honesty have answered a lot of the issues raised previously & it is brilliant that we have that feedback from you as we can now argue your case even more strongly armed with facts,rather than realying on media reports.

I'm sure I'm not the only MN-er who appreciates your bravery,coming on here & discussing your life in such an open & calm fashion. Thank-you.

Beenleigh thanks for that link.

There seems to already be several petitions lodged along the lines of what we're discussing.

not exactly the same but similar

I'm happy to draft something out but don't want to duplicate others efforts or harm your case in any way Fran?

Good Luck to you Fran. I sincerely hope you get the chance to prove that you can be a good mum to Molly. It's really not a whole load to ask is it?

Please keep us posted.

Good luck Fran x

Fran, I saw you on This Morning, but only realised you were a MNetter today. TBH I hadn't clicked on your threads because this kind of state intervention makes me feel physically sick. I feel so for you and Molly and wish you the strength to beat the system.

bump

Bosstbritches if you could set up a petition that would be fantastic. I am also going to write to my MP to support the Early Day Motion.

This is absolute madness and I really feel for you Fran.

Fran, I'm cutting and pasting this part of your comments because I think they are the most intelligent, thoughtful, and measured words I have heard on this topic. I'm impressed that someone in your dreadfuul position, under unbelievable pressure, could phrase it in this way.

"I believe that the vast majority of social workers are genuinely caring and empathetic individuals who honestly seek to provide help and support to people who are really struggling at the margins of society. However I also believe that too often they are abandoned in a poorly staffed, poorly resourced and poorly trained system which really can't cope with the demands being made of it. Decisions made in situations such as mine are so immense as to deny true comprehension. Surely it must be in everyone's interest that we ensure the professionals and the system responsible are as transparent, informed and rigorous as is possible? The system quite rightly and necessarily wields a vast amount of power - but for it to do so without due scrutiny and humility often ends up feeling, and being perceived as being, abusive in itself."

Hear hear Edam- I would be completely hysterical & packing my bags to flee the country. I hope the calm measured approach Fran is taking has the impact it deserves.

I'm working on a petition .

Will try & post it tomorrow.

Hi,

Sorry - I posted this on the other thread last night and meant to put on here too but forgot!

Thank you all for your support, and your kind words.

Fran & Molly

Hi,

I've just read the whole thread through and just wanted to add one last thing. I have not been diagnosed with munchausen's syndrome myself. Over the past few weeks I've had a psychiatric assessment for social services (having the forensic psychological assessment next Tuesday). The psychiatrist conducting the assessment said explicitly that I do not have munchausen's.

Sorry I didn't pick up that query with my first post.

Thanks,

Fran

Thank you for putting to rest all the innuendo that has gone on on this thread Fran. I am so sorry that you were the subject of it - you don't deserve that on top of what you are having to deal with.

petitions.pm.gov.uk/FranLyons/AUg8CZBY0529Al188CARREl

Looks like there is one pending approval.

petitions.pm.gov.uk/FranLyons/AUg8CZBY0529Al188CARREl

sorry forgot brackets

The petition 'will go to the no.10 team for approval' sounds a bit ominous. Wonder if they decide to lose it down the back of the sofa?

I wonder if they accept petitions about individuals rather than about general issues.

If they don't then perhaps it would be a good idea to have a petition regarding MSBP/FII as a diagnosis and to end the secrecy in the family courts for care and adoption proceedings (not so certain it's a bad idea in divorce proceedings).

Was just chatting to DH about this and he says 'oh! that was me. Do you want me to email you what I've put?'[rolleyes emoticon] They never tell you anything!! Here's his petition hope it meets with everyones aproval.

Your petition reads:

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to support John
Hemming MP's Early Day Motion ("That this House notes that
local authorities and their staff are incentivised to ensure
that children are adopted; is concerned about increasing
numbers of babies being taken into care, not for the safety of
the infant, but because they are easy to get adopted; and calls
urgently for effective scrutiny of care proceedings to stop
this from happening"), to immediately scrap adoption targets,
to immediately change social service policy to one of
supporting parents with children rather than removal of
children from parents (except where a child is in immediate
risk of harm), to make it a legal requirement that the removal
of a child at birth be the absolutely final course of action
only after all other avenues have provably been explored, open
up the family courts to public scrutiny, to legislate against
the use of gagging orders to prevent mothers from protesting
against the removal of their children and to fully investigate
the staff and actions of the social services with a fully
public open enquiry. The forced removal of children from their
parents is the most terrifying power that the government has.
This power has been abused and is continuing to be abused. As a
father the Prime Minister should ask himself if there is any
difference between the abduction of a child by the state than
by kidnappers.

As the deplorable actions of the social services in the case of
Fran Lyon the social services are currently prepared to take
children from mothers on the flimsest of evidence (a
psychiatrist's note based on case history and not on a face to
face meeting) rather than this being the absolutely final
course of action.

Children are being taken by the state with no evidence of abuse
simply to meet adoption targets. Evidence has been presented to
the public of grandparents being allowed to adopt older
grandchildren whilst not being allowed to adopt the younger
ones. This has nothing to do with ability or abuse. A
grandparent is either a fit parent or they are not. The
splitting up of families in this way is not just an abhorrant
abuse of human rights but is a sickening side-effect of
adoption targets and will one day lead to a scandal of
unbelievable proportions.

Abuse does happen. Children do need to be removed from their
parents. We accept that this is the case but we do not feel
that the government is erring on the side of caution to protect
children we believe the government has become the leading
abuser of children in this country.

Well done, MrGokWan!

(Is there a story behind your name, btw? Suspect there is and dying to know what!)

Hello,

Thank you.

I just wanted to say that the evidence social services have against me isn't from a psychiatrist - but from a paediatrician. All the psychological and psychiatric reports have said I am not a risk to Molly and don't have Munchausen's.

Thanks again. I really do appreciate it.

Fran

I guess you can't say too much about it, but it's baffling - how can a paediatrician diagnose an adult? Clearly s/he can't diagnose the baby, because she hasn't been born yet... bizarre.

I wish I could say more - but I don't have any more information to give sadly. I don't know why a paediatrician has commented upon my mental health, I don't know what information he had before commenting, I don't know how he got involved at all. I hadn't met the paediatrician concerned before he commented, and I still haven't.

This is what I have found so frustrating all along. There is no actual "evidence" of anything at all in my case - just speculation and conjecture. This is why I don't understand why going to a Mother and Baby unit isn't the immediately obvious solution - Molly would be safe, and a real assessment of the situation could be made.

Thanks,

Fran

Sadly, you are quite right, Fran. The child protection system seems to be operate too often on gossip and mass hysteria that recalls the Salem witch trials. I am sure there are clear-cut cases where parents have actually abused or neglected their children, but there seem to be far too many based on speculation and prejudice.

My sister works with SWs and was horrified by one case where she was involved with a service user with learning disabilities. The SWs concerned, who knew sod-all about learning disabilities or about the service user herself, were just bossy, ill-informed and prejudiced. And determined to split the girl up from her boyfriend on the grounds that he was 'over-involved' because he visited his partner and baby in hospital every day. Shocking. They made it clear they were forcing the girl into a mother and baby unit not because there were any concerns about her ability to look after the child, but in order to get rid of the boyfriend.