I just can't take this in. I've no words.

[TheQueef]

Sarah Barrass and Brandon machin in the link.
It's upsetting, be warned

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-50388496

@Hecateh
I fear this situation (hopefully not murders though) is going to come up increasingly in large estates where men and women have numerous children to different partners. Their kids are meeting and procreating without even knowing they are half siblings. It's really quite scary.

And so it has always been for adopted children

misses point

I fear this situation (hopefully not murders though) is going to come up increasingly in large estates where men and women have numerous children to different partners.

Their kids are meeting and procreating without even knowing they are half siblings. It's really quite scary.

I know what you mean but I don't think it's an estate thing. Men get multiple women pregnant and have zero involvement with the children from all backgrounds and classes. I don't know the laws around sperm and egg donation and wonder if it's possible that a man can have several children biological children who don't know how many biological half siblings they have and could also accidentally have a sexual relationship with a half sibling without knowing.

It's a heartbreaking story. Those poor children :(

They both suffered horrendous abuse as children and likely did not receive adequate therapy and help as children or teens. This is important to note when we ask why these things happen.

I had an abusive childhood, and let me tell you the help is scant on the ground even in these more aware times. Very scant. A lot of health professionals are clueless, naturally because they have overwhelmingly come from functional backgrounds and are acheivers (hence being doctors, health visitors etc). Access to high quality specialised therapy is a joke. The waiting list for help is horrendous. In my teens I went through abuse, being homeless, etc....and few people batted an eyelid, although my doctor, and keyworkers knew. That same doctor still cannot understand why I'm struggling at university with anxiety and has refused to write notes for me.

And there is no overall decent help out there for people who struggle with personality, mental and or physical issues because of their past. I struggle everyday and went through trauma when I had my children. Imagine being sick at the thought of having to change your child's nappy or bathe them....nearly having a panic attack at thought of sending them to nursery and having no one to talk to...or worse talking to a 'professional' and getting told to get on with it. Now imagine if you are still being daily triggered by obsessive thoughts that something abuse related will happen to your children...maybe you were abused by care professionals or in care...but there is no one to talk to, no professional help to deal with your obsessive thoughts...your fears become magnified....you dwell on it...you become convinced your children will suffer more if they are in care. To you death is not suffering...being abused and living with it is....

They are wicked because an absence of morals do factor here. But the roots leading to this horrr will not be properly looked into and as a country we will learn nothing and change nothing and content ourselves with calling them evil, wicked etc.

And no, I am not excusing them I would never hurt my children, and I don't think they should ever come out of jail, even after 35 years.

But I was never fully broken by my experiences and other aspects of my upbringing were totally normal. Unlike others who have experienced much, much worse. So there for the grace of god go I.

Apparently SS were alerted to them. I read this a couple of weeks ago.

Catherineifaragon I too noted through the horror of reading the story that she (I didn’t realise he too) had had horrificMc abusive childhood. I’m at the criminal bar and frequently sickeningly frequently deal with clients who are repeating what they have experienced as victims.
Glad you have got through what you went through.

I fear this situation (hopefully not murders though) is going to come up increasingly in large estates where men and women have numerous children to different partners.

Actually GSA or Genetic Sexual Attraction as it's termed is an increasing phenomenon especially in those who have used sperm donarship, or were adopted and then regain contact with their mum/dad/sister/daughter/brother years later. There are stories involving mothers and daughters. That's how difficult it is to break the attraction once it starts. Apparently familiarity lowers the chance of this happening in families where siblings grow up together. Grown apart or separated then it can kick in powerfully.

Then, yes there's also people not knowing they are related although GSA is likely a factor there as well.

It could be in this case that they were separated in care then reunited. Or the abuse was a factor as pp said.

What living on an estate has got to with it though I have no clue

I have fostered many children. I used to have a quiet rage against their birth parents - how could anyone treat children so despicably? (Obviously I kept my feelings to myself as we had to meet them weekly.)

One day, I read a birth mother's file ( through a court case, not a usual thing - we were never normally given access) and I wept.

Her mother had been a heroin and alcohol addicted prostitute. Her mother had sold her many, many times for unspeakable acts. She was very damaged, and couldn't form normal, loving attachments as a result ( even with her own DC). Forming unhealthy attachments to very violent and abusive men, plus alcohol and drug addiction was her "norm."

She was so incredibly damaged and I could see her doing something similar to this, as a testament to "how much she loved her children". She didn't actually love them like we would - she hadn't a clue how - but the thing is she so wanted to - she desperately wanted to be "normal" - heartbreakingly so.

I know there are people who leave their shitty childhoods behind, and go on to make utterly amazing parents ( and I am in awe of them - have fostered two - and their babies) but the harsh reality is - they are in the minority.

Having read that one poor mother's childhood case file, ( the details were horrific) I now struggle to condemn her. I don't know what the answer is - beyond breaking the cycle. We have to punish these people - we have to protect children.

What is unarguably horrific is that she is the only one in the headlines being blamed.

@HeronLanyon Thank you. That's very kind.

It gave me a sleepless night at least.
It's dropped off the news front page.
Those kids knew they were trying to kill them, they went to bed that night knowing mum and dad were trying to get rid of all six of them, knowing they had taken the pills.
Such cruelty.

Great post @rhinocrash, the work you do is amazing

Calling people monsters only makes it harder to stop these things happening again.

Living on an estate
this is relevant purely because of the proximity of the children growing up, no other reason.
One extra prolific example is a male on a large estate close to me that by his late 20s had 13 (known about) children to 11 different mothers.
So all these kids, of similar age, growing up within a few streets of each other, are very likely to socialise together.

It was me that referenced the estate they lived. The relevance was to show this wasn't an isolated family with limited contact with the community.
They were part of the community and it seems had an open secret.

I can't imagine the abuse which must have happened for generations for this horrific outcome.

They are likely victims but they're also child murderers.

A lot of these large housing estates are very isolated, mini towns really. With their own schools etc. Where I live there's a massive one, plonked on the outskirts. Four miles away from the main town.

A lot of the people who live there don't have cars, there's high levels of unemployment so the £12 or whatever to get into the main town isn't a priority. Or available tbh.

Their friends, family, future relationship are often on the same estate along with women who have kids with multiple dad's from the same area and men who have kids scattered about.........growing up it wasn't unusual to get to year 6 / secondary school age when kids start taking notice and finding out Sally in year 8 is Jimmy's sibling in form 6b. One of my friends found out the kid who sat a few rows behind her was her sister when her mum randomly pointed her out to her ........and then there are all the cousins wandering about who don't know they're related. .......the gene pool is diluted. As well as the life opportunities for the poor kids who rarely leave the estate.

Posters can wave biscuits about all they like but there's no denying that large, isolated communities with high levels of deprivation can be great places to live in some ways. The strong community bonds for one but they can also turn a bit off kilter. Where gossip and drama are a main source of entertainment............you can bet their relationship would have been a topic of conversation with many on the estate but as it was just another bit of drama to them it wouldn't have occurred to anyone to actually do something about it.

Yes, but you have to prove that it's a phenomenon more likely to happen in an estate than an isolated villiage, town with houses close together, or people living in denser populated areas like London with mazes of streets connected together and whole areas that function as different counties with millions of people in each.

It seems from a pragmatic point of view that gossip and increased chances of interation (bumping into the same people often, socialising etc) would prevent two people getting together without knowing they are related.

In this situation everyone kne

Where the issues aris

That's all I'm querying.

Didn't finish post.

In a nutshell. I feel its more likely to be an issue when siblings do not know each other ie they are scattered over a wider area and come into contact later. In this situation, due to the closness of the community it appears people knew and there were rumours, gossip and not necessarily approval.