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BBC: MMR is safe

158 replies

hazlinh · 10/09/2004 03:41

bbc story

OP posts:
MistressMary · 10/09/2004 12:35

Here's the science;
formaldehyde
mercury (these two consist of .01 - .025% or #6 pheno-oxyethenal, a protoplasmic poison)
aluminium
paint thinner
coolant
anti freeze
dye
detergent
phenols
solvent
borax
disinfectant
MSG
glycerol
sulfite and phospate compounds
polysorbate 80/20
sorbitol
polyribosylribotol
Amphotericin B and other chemicals
plus hydrolized gelatin
casein
dead animal tissue and blood eg. cow, chick embryo, monkey, sheep, pig, dog, etc
aborted human foetus cells
mutated (more virulent) human viruses
(eg SV40 which causes cancer in humans)
bacteria and bacterial endotoxins
antibiotics
yeast and animal bacterial and viral DNA
(which when injected can be incorportaed into the recipient DNA)
all these things are used in vaccines.

goodkate · 10/09/2004 12:47

Actually I'm trying to stand up for these people.

Sad as it is I live in a city that is at the bottom of the league tables. It is a Fact that illetracy is high in this city. A lot are out of work and on benefits. These people are not stupid nor thick, just living in circumstances beyond their control. They rely heavily on advice given by their doctors, health visitors for correct information, the goverment has to look after these people the most because they are the most dependent on them. I am not beng patronsing at all, quite the reverse, both my parents come from hard backgrounds and the areas which I am talking about.

Lets just pretend all information that these health bodies produce. Getting back to injections.

I've just rang my mother and mother in law to conduct my own mini survey.

Mum: Yes, do you remember pat's brother who lived up the road in an iron lung - Polio. And one of her Uncle's also lived in iron lung. Loads of her friends had measles and whooping cough, one or two died.

MIL: Oh yes I remember kids off school with measles etc. etc. You don't see as much these days.

Me: I remember kids with whooping cough as a child. And the mister up the road who was deaf and couldn't speak properly cos he had measles as a child.

Now: Case of measles at nursery school earlier in the year. Child was fine nobody else caught it. The only other case I remember since I've had children was also measles about 8 years ago.

And besides mumsnet I've heard no - one having a bad reaction to an injection, except the occasional high temperature.

I'm sorry but I cannot believe the government would spend vast amounts of money immunising millions of children if it were unsafe except in a very tiny minority of cases.

goodkate · 10/09/2004 12:57

We spend a lot of our lives taking far greater risks. Life is full of taking risks, most of them measured. The risk of a reaction to immunisation is minimal. Everything we eat, breath, drink is contaminated. Every time we step on a plane we know that the chances are we will die if it crashes, yet we still do these things because we know that the risk is minute and highly unlikely to affect us.

Its just the same, we know that there is a very small risk with immunisation and always will be.

krocket · 10/09/2004 13:01

you may find not many responses to this goodkate, this has been debated endlessly on MN and as I've said before there are very many educated and well informed mumsnetters who have studied a lot of the actual original research (not read media reports or summaries) into MMR and concluded there are risks. I for one am undecided but I have to say I am much more convinced by some of the past arguments on this than I am on your "there is always a risk" approach.

Jimjams · 10/09/2004 13:05

Right some facts. Would class myself as educated.

  1. The people who think there is a link (Wakefield, Shattock et al) reckon that about 7% of cases of autism are caused by MMR. 7% - That will never be picked up on a epidemiological study. You have to look at the children concerned. This has been started (with great obstruction from the Dept of Health btw- a bunch of severely autistic children had to be flown to the states- the thought of putting my son on a plane brings me out in goosebumps)- Anyway the limited research so far done shows that these children (some of the 7%) have vaccine strain measles virus in their guts and spinal fluid. Doesn't prove causation but if I was a parent of one of those children I would want to know why my normally developing until his MMR child had this virus in places it shouldn't be.

  2. As far as the dept of health is concerned autism is caused by ABV (anything but vaccines). The columbia paper has been sidelined- even thought the research was far more interesting and groundbreaking than this latest same old same old. This new paper is not novel research - it is govt propaganda.

  3. The reaction to the columbia paper has led me to believe that it doesn't really matter what is published - if it needs to be hidden/dismissed it will be. It gave a very probable explanation of what happened in our family. It confirmed to me that we were right not to vaccinate ds2 (who by the way seems to have lost his speech disorder overnight) and that we will be right not to vaccinate ds3. There is enough good research out there now for people to make up their own minds as to what's right for their family. And there is enough well known doubt about the MMR for anyone concerned to know to look for more information.

4)Anything implicating vaccinations needs to be dismissed in case it jeopardises the vaccination programme. Research showing that some adutls didn't do too well with multiple vaccinations (gulf war syndrome) was destroyed (source Aloha ) Although the recommendation that multiple vaccinations should be avoided where possible did make it through to GW2. Likewise although officially the Colombia paper officially was a nothing and an irrelevence thimerosil is being removed from paediatric vaccinations and this did hapen relatively soon after publication (at least most it the new ones contain traces apparently- as the thimerosil is removed rather than never added- would need to check that source though).

krocket · 10/09/2004 13:06

aha, there you are jimjams! the very person.

Jimjams · 10/09/2004 13:13

goodkate- there is one major problem with yoru argument. The children who are damaged receive nothing. No one says "oh you did such a great thing for society- here lets give you loads of therapy so that you make the best of this mess". IN fact they say "speech therapy? there's no piint giving your child speech therapy they can't talk" (yep have had that one!)

And when you have a second child and look into what happened to your first and you find that there is a possible link between predisposition to autoimmunity and bad vaccination outcomes (and I found out 2 and half years ago about the potential for thimerosil and autism to go together) no-one tells you not to vaccinate your second. if you decide not to and then present the evidence as to why not- you find that the medical profession on the whole supports your decisions (for example my HV who said " I would have done the same as you" and my GP who keeps very quiet except to make an occasional joke about the subject).

Thirdly I do find the coments about the lawyers (badied about in the press etc) rather offensive. Most people I know want to know what happened to their child so they can make the correct decision for their younger children. And even if they did win money- so what? It would only be spent on therapies that should be provided by the State- but aren't.

Jimjams · 10/09/2004 13:18

You didn't think I'd stay away did you krocket

TBH though the fire has gone out. I was soooooo excited by the Colombia mouse paper as it fits us so well, but then I realised so what- it won't change anything- not for ds1. No-one's going to say "oh whoops took your chance of independent life away- here have some money so you can go and actually get some therapy and your mother can have some respite". The people who think I'm mad still will. I'll still have to ring the LEA a lot (had to 3rd day of term). I'll still have to write to my MP almost continuously - she's a waste of space. So "research" like this which is so transparent it doesn't even register just brings a roll of the eyes really. I think the numbers affected by the MMR are probably too small for anything ever to happen.

Ah well. Autism has taught me a lot. Everything happens for a reason I guess.

frogs · 10/09/2004 13:22

krocket and aloha -- injecting small babies with anything is powerfully counterintuitive.

Add in the fact that some babies undoubtedly have a (not fully-understood) predisposition to adverse reactions against vaccines, plus the fact that there are significant commercial and political vested interests at stake as well as a very large dose of media scaremongering, and you have the ingredients for a mass panic on the basis of junk science.

No vaccine can ever be proven to be 100% safe all of the time and in all individuals. All the scientists can say is that there is no evidence for a particular causative link.

What is certain is that people who have no particular reason to suspect individual susceptibility are failing to have their children vaccinated for reasons that have absolutely no scientific basis. This lowers the population immunity to the point where children who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons are at risk from preventable diseases.

I know two people whose children were successfully treated for leukaemia only to die of measles, and a further case where the child was left blind, deaf and brain-damaged after catching mumps.This doesn't get media coverage because it's far less sexy than cooking up conspiracy theories.

aloha · 10/09/2004 13:34

Frogs, have you actually read the Columbia paper? the whole thing? We aren't talking about 'intuition' here, we are talking about 'the science'. Frankly, I do find it rather patronising to assume that we have 'science' = all vaccination 100% safe and marvellous, v 'women's intuition" - ooh, panic and hysteria. It aint that simple.

aloha · 10/09/2004 13:36

Or do you think, rather conveniently, that Wakefield AND Columbia Unversity produce 'junk science'?

krocket · 10/09/2004 13:41

with all due respect frogs, jimjams's message of 1.05 contains a hell of a lot more science and logic that yours. and it's got bugger all to do with what 'intuitive'.

Jimjams · 10/09/2004 13:52

well no they'll never be fully understood if no-one looks at them will they.

Most media coverage backs the govt line. Read it, cut the stuff out, pile it up and compare.

I don't think having a row about what is worse (deaf/blind vs autism) is really very helpful. Actually I always think the rubella thing can be further muddied because if you catch rubella right at the beginning of pregnancy you don't increase your risk of a deaf/blind baby you increase your risk of an autistic one.

The other thing that is missed is that this isn't an all or nothing. MMR is a vaccination that may well have done something strange to a very small number of children. There is good direct evidence of this. We don't have to stop vaccination completely because of this - we could just look at the way vaccinations are being given and maybe just maybe we could give them differently in a way which is safer until we decide what is going on. Does such a way exist? Oh my goodness yes it does!!!! Single vaccines. See easy. But then I'm not a politician am I?

Someone mentioned earlier the rise in autism better diagnosis blah blah. The california cases are the best to use here as they don't include cases of PPD, AS or even HFA- they supposedly stick mainly to children who couldn't have been missed. And they show a huge rise.

Now clearly MMR is not responsible for the rise in autism cases (in fact no-one is saying it is- not now- the researchers looking at the link know the numbers are small). I have my suspicions. For example when MMR was introduced the timing of the thimerosil containing DtwP was changed so it was given at 2, 3 and 4 months rather than over the course of the first year. Work in the states that looked at 503 autistic children/adults showed that 499 of them had problems with the protein metallothionein- it either didn't work or was sub-optimal. And what does metallothionein do? Well lots fo things- including heavy metal detoxification. Other reasearch has shown that autistic children are carrying a much higher mercury load in therir bodies than NT children. So take politics out and I would say producing safer vaccations on today's knowledge isn't rocket science. Might cost a bit of cash though.

frogs · 10/09/2004 14:02

What do you reckon the proportion of vaccinated to unvaccinated children is among medics' kids? Don't know if anyone's counted, but I'd be willing to bet it's northwards of 90%.

Btw my post absolutely didn't say that all vaccination is 100% safe and effective for all children all the time. I made sure my kids all had inactivated polio as there was a possibility their immune systems are compromised because of a family history of auto-immune disease. I didn't know then about the mercury, otherwise I would probably have looked into the mercury-free alternative.

What my post said is that for most people without any specific risk factors the overall risk of not vaccinating (including risks to 3rd parties) is greater than the risks of vaccination. So that's what I've done with my children, as in fact do most parents. But no-one writes about us, as it doesn't make good headlines.

Heathcliffscathy · 10/09/2004 14:03

meanbean's post of 11:58:27 has been ignored and is i think v interesting. what if the rates of infection and serious complication of these diseases was going down before the introduction of mass vaccination programs? what if vaccinating young babies compromises their ability to successfully develop a strong immune system? who is doing research into this? no one with a lot of funding that's for sure, there isn't any money in it.

Jimjams · 10/09/2004 14:04

Calling the Shots by Mary Alexander is a great book to read if you want to know how the medical profession reponds when you think your child has had an adverse reaction to a vaccination. Not about MMR - autism at all (meningitis C and epilepsy).

Unfortunately the medical profession doesn't have a very high opinion of mother's. No-one's yet mentioned that you don't notice autism until the time the MMR's given (bollards).

Jimjams · 10/09/2004 14:06

frogs very little media coverage strays from the party line on MMR. If you don't believe me read it.

Agree with sophable as well.

goodkate · 10/09/2004 14:13

The response to what I think is never positive when discussing this thread. Nobody ever agrees with me but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Besides the vast majority never read research papers or get to know the results of trials and tests. They have to go on what they read in newspapers or are told by the health profession, which, I should imagine, the majority of people have faith in (the health service that is and certainly not the daily mail).

I'm still a firm believer that immunisation is for the good of the people.

Anyhow, I'm weary now and I have to attend to a chocolate covered baby.

Heathcliffscathy · 10/09/2004 14:14

hi gk: always good to see you online tho

Jimjams · 10/09/2004 14:22

good of the people quite possibly, just sucks if it didn't happen to be good for your little darling.

BTW frogs- just curious- if yur child had been damaged by DTwP (say they were vaccinated post the Colombia paper and then it became apparent they were autistic, and you had lots of autoimmune conditions in your family blah de blah ) wouldn't you be rather cross to say the least that the research had been known but not acted upon- especially as there is no need for thimerosil to be in a vaccination. Or would you really think that ah well you'd done your bit for society?

I don't think many people here are particularly anti-vaccination per se- just anti taking extra risks with the procedure.

Jimjams · 10/09/2004 14:23

good of the people quite possibly, just sucks if it didn't happen to be good for your little darling.

BTW frogs- just curious- if yur child had been damaged by DTwP (say they were vaccinated post the Colombia paper and then it became apparent they were autistic, and you had lots of autoimmune conditions in your family blah de blah ) wouldn't you be rather cross to say the least that the research had been known but not acted upon- especially as there is no need for thimerosil to be in a vaccination. Or would you really think that ah well you'd done your bit for society?

I don't think many people here are particularly anti-vaccination per se- just anti taking extra risks with the procedure.

Jimjams · 10/09/2004 14:24

bugger hate it when that happens! Sorry!

goodkate · 10/09/2004 14:30

Hi Sophable, glad to see you in here. As you can I'm up to my old tricks again.

But someones got to disagree or else it gets a bit one sided. i've taken off my tin hat, all the battering is starting to give me a head ache.

I'm I a glutten for punishment me. I think I'll stay out of these threads infuture.

Jimjams · 10/09/2004 14:38

I think the problem goodkate (and I don't really think I'm getting at you tbh) is that whilst the risk from a vaccination for YOUR CHILDREN may be minimal and comparable to breathing air or whatever I don't believe that the risk to MY CHILDREN is minimal at all. Especially if they chuck mercury in for good measure. (so not talking MMR here). I suspect my children have many many times (my maths is crap but going on the figures probably 100x the risk- without testing for metallothionein function in advance) the risk of developing autism following a thimerosil injection than yours have. That's the point.

And if that gives you a headache I can guarantee it would be nowhere near the headache I'd have from having TWO autistic kids in the same household.

goodkate · 10/09/2004 14:50

No I think the difference is in our beliefs.

I believe there is no link whatsoever between MMR and autism whereas you do, there is nothing wrong in that. We all have different beliefs. I just want to put mine forward thats all.

Beliefs are based on all our experiences and obviously ours are very different.

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