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BBC: MMR is safe

158 replies

hazlinh · 10/09/2004 03:41

bbc story

OP posts:
goodkate · 10/09/2004 11:24

I appreciate that some of us suffer because of medical decisions and I don't mean to be hard or uncaring, but this is a tiny minority.

We cannot let the benefit for the majority be affected by a tiny minority, its just not fair!

goodkate · 10/09/2004 11:28

edam I am aware of what you are saying but again we need pharmacuetical companies. Where would we be without them? The majority of the drugs they make are beneficial.

I realise they are money making, globalised corporate machines, greedy and lustful but on the whole they do benefit us.

coppertop · 10/09/2004 11:31

goodkate - if you knew that there was a very good chance that having your child vaccinated would cause them to stop breathing and therefore run a high risk of brain damage, would you vaccinate anyway and say "Well at least the rest of the children in the street won't catch whooping cough from him/her?" That was the choice I had to make wrt the pertussis vaccine.

Chandra · 10/09/2004 11:34

Goodkate, would you think the same if one of your children become part of the highly affected minority? I don't think so, this is a lottery with a very bad prize, very few chances of getting it but just in case, some people preffer not to buy a ticket... People don't care for the world they care for their own children (though it will be vary altruistic for things to be other way, sadly it's not part of the standard human nature..)

Chandra · 10/09/2004 11:35

Ooops Cross posted, I think Coppertop reply will sufice

Angeliz · 10/09/2004 11:41

goodkate, I really think that people who say that only a tiny minority could be adversly affected really beleive their child WONT be one of those.(and God willing they wont)
The sad thing is, so do most of the parents whose childrens are probably.
I'm not against vaccines, my dd has had most of her early ones and single MMR, but the more i leran the less i trust i'm afraid.

I just wish that Doctors could give you the real risks of the disease against the REAL risk of the vaccine and THEN parents could really make informed decisions.

goodkate · 10/09/2004 11:50

Yes, I probably would have a more distorted view if one of my children had reacted badly because of an injection. But I'm speaking for the majority who haven't had a reaction and who don't want their children to catch a highly infectious potentially fatal disease.

Why do you believe that these diseases are mild and harmless compared to injections? Where is the evidence that this is so? Why did so many more people suffer from these diseases than the injections?

Blimey, what is so wrong with wanting the vast majority of people to have good healthy lives by preventing them getting these diseases?

Angeliz · 10/09/2004 11:53

I don't beleive AT ALL that alot of those diseases are mild and harmless but i don't believe vaccines are either and if we had all the info on BOTH, then we'd be better armed to decide surely??

aloha · 10/09/2004 11:54

Yeah, right, anyone who is sceptical about the '100% safety' of vaccines is just desperate for kids to die. I give up.

aloha · 10/09/2004 11:55

And all diseases are 'potentially fatal' including the common cold and cold sores.

goodkate · 10/09/2004 11:57

Chandra, my point is I do care for the world, a lot. If I didn't immunise my children and they caught measles that then spread through the school or nursery I would feel awful especially if children were permanantly damaged.

Talking of lottery, more people play - less chance of winning, less people play - more chance of winning.

MeanBean · 10/09/2004 11:58

I also think you have to look at the quality of info we are given. Why do people who live in the third world without clean safe drinking water die from infectious diseases even though they've been vaccinated against them? And did diptheria figures start to go down before the introduction of the vaccine for it (after the introduction of widespread clean drinking water)? These are arguments I've heard so many times, but whenever I look for info, it's always from really dodgy sources, and I never know how true these things are. So if anyone has a cast iron reliable source that they can direct me to, I'd be grateful!

goodkate · 10/09/2004 11:59

Nobody is ever desperate for people to die. I just want less people to die unnecessarily.

MeanBean · 10/09/2004 11:59

I know, I'm probably asking for the moon...

MistressMary · 10/09/2004 12:00

why dont the government make it compulsory to vaccinate then?

Chandra · 10/09/2004 12:04

I think the issue is not about vacinating or not is about implementing better mechanism so children who are at risk can be identified before hand rather than just saying "ooops! it almost never hapens". I think if I have had a better response from the doctors when he had those bad reactions to the GP would have made me trust them to apply the MMR, but because they seem so concerned in protecting the vacines' reputation rather than to investigate if there was something wrong with the vacine or my child having some predisposition towards them I decided not to buy the ticket so he's having MMR in separate vacines.
Again it's not about vacinating or not, it's about accepting that some children may be more prone to react to some vacines and it would help if they could find if they have more chances of being damaged before pplying them as a blanket to the whole population. Sure it will be expensive, but how much are children lives worth?

Chandra · 10/09/2004 12:06

GP??? DTP!!!

goodkate · 10/09/2004 12:08

Arm fuls of information wouldn't help either because it is always conflicting. There will always be somebody to disagree with what ever information is produced based on "sound medical evidence". The confusion would be even greater.

Most people accept that beng immunised saves more people than not. Tell me, those that are educated and well informed, how is your single mum, with three children twenty flights of stairs to climb 3 times a day, living on benefits supposed to be able to make an "infomed decision" about immunising her children with so much conflicting information around. Poor woman has to rely on the Government to ensure her children are protected and in this instance I think the government are bang on because in reality these are the people they have to protect the most. Not us who can sit and argue but those that can't.

edam · 10/09/2004 12:21

Goodkate, of course we need pharma cos and the drugs they make ? as I pointed out, I take one every day. Just reacting to your suggestion that pharma cos 'want to make their drugs safer'. Probably overall they do but when it comes to specific drugs and specific groups of patients that ain't necessarily the case.
WRT innoculation, again, of course overall it is a good thing to protect children against diseases that can, in some cases, be very serious. But it is equally important to recognise that vaccines, like any other medicine, can do harm as well as good. There are people who have been damaged by vaccines in the past - that's why some vaccines have been withdrawn. These people exist ? it is a fact ? and they are a small minority who suffered for the public good. Immunisation involves a small risk of harm (which may be minimal and transient, like a fever, or more serious, as in the cases of people who are now adults and were injured by vaccines used in the past) to any individual v. a larger risk of harm from the disease you vaccinate against to the general population.

As with any other drug, we need real, hard, unbiased and appropriate research to show what risks exist - a few kids have a fever, fine, that's a risk most parents would consider is outweighed by protection against measles. A few kids might be at high risk of breathing difficulties from pertussis vaccine ? fine, let's use the evidence to show which kids are at risk here and make decisions based on their medical needs. And let's protect kids who can't be vaccinated by the rest of us, who can, getting our kids vaccinated.

But appropriate research means asking the right questions and designing studies that are methodolically sound to provide an answer to that question. The answer to the questions 'why did Andrew Wakefield find vaccine strain measles in the gut of a very small number of autisic children' and 'was this merely a coincidence, or actually cause and effect' will not be provided by epidemiological studies. Properly designed epidemiological studies do show that MMR is not killing or damaging thousands of children. That's reassuring. However, they do not answer the questions Wakefield raised about a very small number of autistic children.

Villifying researchers who dare to ask inconvenient questions is not going to improve our understanding of drug safety.

And misleading parents by spin isn't either - it just makes parents suspicious (eg the DoH claiming there's never been a programme of single vaccines for measles, mumps and rubella in this country. Do they think parents don't remember their own childhoods, FFS? I had single vaccines for measles and rubella and dh had them for measles and mumps (and caught mumps four times into the bargain). They only stopped using single measles vaccines in the late 90s, I saw the health service circular confirming the decision at the time! Lying about that doesn't encourage anyone to trust them.

Taking Wakefield's research seriously and designing independent, appropriate and well-conducted studies to test his findings is. Unfortunately that isn't quite what is happening.

frogs · 10/09/2004 12:25

Go for it, goodkate! The science is with you on this one.

aloha · 10/09/2004 12:28

Actually, in the lottery, your chance of winning is not increased if fewer people play.

aloha · 10/09/2004 12:29

So Frogs, do you think injecting small babies with mercury is a good idea? That's what the government says.

edam · 10/09/2004 12:31

God, Goodkate, how patronising are you? What makes you think I'm not a single mum living in a council flat ? MN isn't restricted to the chattering classes you know. And people who don't have your disposable income are just as entitled to be treated like intelligent adults as anyone else, FFS.
What every parent needs is a thorough, independent investigation into Wakefield's findings so docs can say, honestly, we've looked at the risks, 99 per cent of children will be fine (although 10 per cent of them might have a fever) but if, for instance, you have auto-immune disease in your family, single jabs would be more appropriate. I'm not assuming those risks/benefits are the case, just a for instance, just as a doc would hopefully say, if I questioned inhaled steroids for asthma, these are the risks of uncontrolled asthma, but inhaled steroids are safe, if you want to see the studies here is an independent expert publication for lay people like Treatment notes, and explain the difference between inhaled and oral steriods.

MeanBean · 10/09/2004 12:31

Goodkate, single mums who have to climb stairs are no more incapable of using libraries and reading books and assessing information than married ones who have fewer stairs. Just because someone has less income than someone else, doesn't make her a moron dependent on simplistic, uninformative government literature. I've got lots of stairs in my house and no husband, neither of which circumstances seem to have affected my analytical ability.

krocket · 10/09/2004 12:32

Frogs - Where? show me where the science is?