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Horrifying so-called 'honour' killing

91 replies

edam · 12/06/2007 10:00

The father and uncle of Banaz Mahmod have been sentenced for killing her and chopping up her body. Monstrous. And terrible that apparently the police let her down, failing to take threats against her life seriously.
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6743357.stm]

OP posts:
SueBaroo · 12/06/2007 11:45

Oh, I love the looneys that use a great big wooden paddle with bible verses on it to beat their kids. that's the way to encourage your kids to love God, for sure.

Is it actually in the Koran, then MB? I stand corrected.

Blandmum · 12/06/2007 11:47

I'm not sure! Now you have mentioned the Hadith, you've got me wondering!

Blu · 12/06/2007 11:48

"women are not routinely mutilated and murdered for stepping out of line."

Apart from the two women a week killed in this country by their husbands, generally for trying to leave the marriage. It may not be part of an understaood cultural code, and hasn't been defended (or attempeted defence) under a noxious phrase like 'honour killing', but women in this country have always been at risk when trying to break free of the 'ownership' of a man.

Blandmum · 12/06/2007 11:49

It is in the Koran

"Men [as husbands] are responsible for their women because God has made the one superior to the other [in different spheres] and because they spend of their wealth. Therefore, righteous women are obedient [to their husbands] and guard their secrets as God has also guarded secrets. As for those from whom you fear refusal of obedience, admonish them and [if this does not effect their behavior then] leave them alone on their beds and [if even this does not effect their behavior then] beat them." (Al-Nisaa 4: 34)

There is considerable debate on what this means in practice.

Peachy · 12/06/2007 11:49

Te Hadith are highly dubious in origin though and some were even faked apaprently in order to deliberately provide reliogious approval for specific behaviours by the Ummayyad caliphates (or so evidence suggests) the dynasty even employed hadith Writers for that very purpose.

So whilst they may be a part of Islam now, they're not at all islamic in origin- qwuite the reverse really, considering the Qur'an is ''The book wherein there is no doubt', and divinely created ' And believe in what I have sent down (this Quran), confirming that which is with you, (the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)), and be not the first to disbelieve therein, '

SueBaroo · 12/06/2007 12:01

I just found this from an Islamic site.

Blu, yes, I'm not suggesting that there isn't violence against women in western culture. But it isn't considered acceptable by the broader community, and actually, a man who beats his wife is rightly treated as a bit of a cretin.

bloss · 12/06/2007 12:07

Message withdrawn

Peachy · 12/06/2007 12:11

Actually there 6are^ Quranic Muslims who don't follow the hadith / Sunna but tehy are few and far between

Blu · 12/06/2007 12:19

Well, I think it's important to remember that it isn't actually remotely acceptable to the 'broader community' as a whole, but to rather narrow inward looking pockets of the community.
Half DPs family are from the 'broader' muslim community and wouldn't for one moment support hitting womnen, let alone killing anyone, for any reason whatsoever.

Peachy · 12/06/2007 12:24

Well pointed out Blu

SueBaroo · 12/06/2007 12:28

Blu, yes, certainly. But however big or little the 'pocket' might be, it is still acceptable to them and it shouldn't be.

CoteDAzur · 12/06/2007 16:52

bloss - As I recollect, Quran does say that women are supposed to cover their heads and bosoms, as well as anything else that might be considered "beauty".

Someone else pointed out that mistreatment of women is approved in the Quran (given they "deserve" it), and that is also true.

The problem here is not that the vast majority of Muslims on earth misunderstand the Quran. They are probably not that dumb, although their lifestyle might provoke that question of their sanity and intelligence in the Western mind.

The problem is that Muslims believe Quran is the literal word of God. That it "came down" to Mohammad, page by page, already written (Mohammad was apparently illiterate). Hence, there can be no debate, no flexibility.

Blu · 12/06/2007 16:59

SueBaroo - no, obviously not.

But when CoteD'azure is able to say "They are probably not that dumb, although their lifestyle might provoke that question of their sanity and intelligence in the Western mind. " of apparantly the entire muslim community, I feel, quite strongly, that tedious thouhg it might seem, it is important to point out that it is a tiny minority of people who would support killing a woman. Not a braoder community.

FFS.

That was to CoteDazur.

CoteDAzur · 12/06/2007 17:46

Blu - My post was not about "killing a woman", it was about mistreating women and covering them up. I was not saying all Muslims everywhere think women should be covered from head to toe and beaten up whenever, but that references to both are in the Quran.

I am happy for you that your DP's Muslim family does not believe in hitting or killing women, but do try to understand that there are quite a few others who do, and when they turn to Quran, the verses are there. When I mentioned lifestyles re apparent sanity, I was trying to point out the huge culture gap and the near-impossibility to understand certain concepts in one another's lifestyles. Sorry if this offends you, but many people in Western Europe feel Muslims are "nuts" to want to cover themselves up in the desert heat, willingness to live lives of subjugation (women), not eat certain foods, to accept forced marriages. Quite a few Muslims reciprocate the sentiment towards Westerns, for their chaotic, disrespectful, vulgar, etc lifestyles.

Anyway, before you go "FFS"ing in the future, do read posts better. And consider the possibility that I might know a bit about the "greater Muslim community", being technically Muslim myself - born to Muslim parents, in a Muslim country, although I have never been a believer myself.

I was lucky enough that my country was not a place where they take Quran literally, because there is also a verse in it that describes the actions to take against someone who is born Muslim but "turns hisr/he back" against it. If none work, she is to be killed.

Blu · 12/06/2007 18:24

Then be more careful to be precise about what you write, implicating 'the vast majority of muslims' and their 'lifestyle', which apparantly might lead people to think they are'. Yes, I do appreciate that huge numbers of Western people have a very low opinion of Muslim culture - but I read your sentence not to be about Westerners belief, but about the lifestyle. I can see that it is ambiguous, and your further explanation has cleared it up, so I apologise for the FFS!

Peachy · 12/06/2007 18:28

No Coted'azur, unles both my readng of the Qur'an and that of my Islam Prof is wrong, the guidance on appearance comes from a HAdith statement that was directed at Muhammads wives and not actually a generic statement- that comes later and is a cultural norm rather than a religious must (although opbv some reinterpret the hadith to justify this- not aproblem with wearing the veil etc you understand, just the FORCING of people to wear the veil)

Will check though for you

Blandmum · 12/06/2007 18:31

There was a facinating interview with an Oxford Prof of Islamic studies whoi was speaking against the full veiling of women. He stated that such actions were only listed in the Koran for the wives of the prophet, and were not supposed to be instructions for other women.

In fact he rather had a go at a woman who was arguing the contrary, effecetvly infering that she was 'raising herself to the status' of the prophets wives IYSWIM.

It was most interesting, he was just like some of the Profs I met during my time in Oxford, a real academics academic.

Aloha · 12/06/2007 18:31

The problem IMO is that the life of Mohammed is appalling, full of violence and cruelty. And his is given as the 'perfect life' which all Muslims should emulate. He committed mass murder and took slaves!
Of course not all Muslims emulate this - obviously - even believeing ones. But it's all there.

Peachy · 12/06/2007 18:32

'God has given us three basic rules regarding the dress code of women:
(1) the best garment is the garment of righteousness,
(2) whenever we dress, we should cover our chest (bosoms), and
(3) to lengthen our garment. '

Nothing about Hijab etc then, modesty being of course considerd a virtue- as it was / is in most religions (and for example Men cover their heads in Synagogue)

Aloha · 12/06/2007 18:33

Of course, the God of the Old Testament is also a truly shocking figure of spite and cruelty too. But I have to say, Jesus was pretty good. Deluded, of course, IMO, but remarkably violence-free, not interested in power, and actually liked women.

FioFio · 12/06/2007 18:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Peachy · 12/06/2007 18:34

from a humanist perspective sucha s yours you ahve a valid point Aloha

However thats also an argument I hear trotted out by CHristians whoa re certainly no less guilty (after all mydissertation on salvery and christianity would be worthless otherwise)

edam · 12/06/2007 18:34

Tbh, I don't care whether the Koran or the Hadith or whatever justifies hitting or killing women (although I'm bloody outraged if they do), the point is both are crimes in this country and anyone who lives here should be told this in no uncertain terms. And stopped from carrying out such vile behaviour. And any woman who is threatened should be helped and protected. Why the hell didn't the police charge her uncle and father when they were threatening her life? You don't need the testimony of a victim of domestic violence to prosecute any more, precisely because evil swines like these try to threaten people to drop prosecutions.

OP posts:
SueBaroo · 12/06/2007 18:36

Aloha, I confess I find him a bit of an unsavoury character and I can't really get my head around the suggestion that he was the very best of men. Muslims do suggest to read about his life and how they admire him, and it just seems odd to me. Horses for courses, I suppose.

Peachy · 12/06/2007 18:36

The statement about beating a women is sadly definitely ttrue

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