Horrifying so-called 'honour' killing

[edam]

The father and uncle of Banaz Mahmod have been sentenced for killing her and chopping up her body. Monstrous. And terrible that apparently the police let her down, failing to take threats against her life seriously.
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6743357.stm]

I don't know as it is that separate. Those women were not conforming the expectations of the male-dominated culture. They paid the price.

Thank you for the links. Everyone should read them, even though they are stomach churningly horrible

What sort of a sick culture views the sexual chastity of a woman as the determening factor in the 'Honour' of the family, but sees murder and torture as acceptable?

It is incredible that they feel able to carry out these barbaric traditions in the UK actually.

What did they think? That they wouldn't be arrested here? Did they not understand that this is considered murder and is illegal? And is going to prison as a convicted criminal considered honourable? Perhaps they were planning to leave the country after the murder?

I wonder about the thought processes of these lunatics when they plan a crime like this.

a thousand men particpated in stoning this 16 year old to death

FFS

That's the biggie, MB. In our culture, killing isn't acceptable, and killing your own children is utterly reprehensible. While some of us might still have certain views about the sexual behaviour our children engage in, the idea that our disapproval would be a green-light to transgress a taboo like murder is unthinkable.

It seems completely the other way around in these cases.

I think the problem is that some cultures view woman as some form of lesser human, only there to carry out certain functions and act in certain limited ways. If they step outside those roles they are disposed of.

Many cultures go thorough this. Roman fathers had the right of life and death over all those in their care.

I've got no problem with the notion of society disapproving of something - it can a be useful part of the glue that holds things together.

But when violence and a sense of 'ownership' is involved, that's when things get icky.

You also need only look at which babies survived the one family one child rules in china (boys!). And it wasn't boy babies that were buried alive in old Indian tradition if surplus to family needs...

It is odd that murder is less of a taboo than sexual disobedience though.

Even in mediaeval times in Europe, a girl having sexual intercourse with the wrong boy, was never, ever a legitimate legal reason to kill her - there is no doubt that her brother/ father or whoever, would have been hanged for murder. Whereas in some places, it appears that that old idea that women weren't quite human and therefore the power of life and death were in the hands of their owners, has persisted.

I agree.

I also worry when the rights of one individual are dependent on the behavior and attidues of another. When women are only given the 'rights' that their dh/DF deems appropriate. That is when the ballence can tip, and women are abused in the process.

Firm rights , equal under law, can be a great protection (not always, but often)

womens rights in the UK were never equal to that of men though, the 'rule of thumb' and all that.

And women could be, and were committed to mental hospitals for daring to break sexual norms,.

Agreed, MB, but the simple fact is that almost everyone in our society views those things with disapproval now. That's not the case in cultures that are importing 'family embarrassment murder'.

you were allowed to beat a wife with a stick that was no wider than your thumb.

Nice.

hence 'Rule of thunb' as meaning general guidance on something that is not overly detailed.

I agree Sueb.

I find their mindset abhorant

Isn't it still the case in Islamic cultures? You can beat your wife, but only lightly, if she trangresses. Thin end of the wedge, imo.

So how do we get across to these evil men that their ideas are just plain wrong? And why don't we have a better way to describe crimes against women? If you kill someone because the colour of their skin is different to yours, we call it a racist murder. Why is killing someone because she's a woman called an 'honour' killing, not a sexist or misogynistic murder?

It is a point of debate, where some authorities say that you can, and some say that you cannot.

Some and I stress the some do use the Koranic verse as a justification. But is is used by some.

Rather like mad Christian fundimantalists use verses from the Bible to justify beating children

Yes, I don't there's anything about it in the Koran. But the Hadith are just as much a part of the Muslim traditions, and I think that's where it comes from.
Besides, whether or not it's actually sanctioned by the religion, it is still a culturally acceptable practice. Only as a last resort, mind.