i'm a bit confused, so don't berate me...

[mylittleimps]

before all the usual crowd start slagging me off this is just my personal opinion and i am entitled to express how i feel. if you dont like it i dont care as i will not be telling any of you how to live your lives. I've read the very long thread and i'm confused, mainly about attitude in the UK, i've grown up thinking it's not acceptable to leave a young child alone and hence i would not be going on holiday and leaving my children alone. (and people i talk to in my town feel as i do) I cannot relate to it and got annoyed when a colleague of maddy's father said it's a situation every parent can relate to (what leaving your children out of view for an hour just so you can go and do something that could have been done in your apartment on the otherside of door to the rooms your children are sleeping). I find it hard to empathise with the parents (but saying that i recognise it is the most dreadful position to be in, not knowing who has your child/or where your child is), my heart however goes out to the little girl and i pray and hope that she comes out of this fine.
I don't understand why the press have made the practise of leaving toddlers alone acceptable - especially when there was a babysitting service. i don't understand why the family and friends of the parents just can't show a bit of humility (i only hear: "why isn't more being done", "why aren't the police doing more", "it's all very fine what the police are doing but it's not getting maddy back" and the colleague's statement above). if there had been a bit more gratitude being shown to the support they are getting rather than it's a done deal that they should be getting it i would feel more inclined to have some feelings for the parents. BUT why am i such a cold hearted cow and taking the enormous risk of posting this on MN? because of the facts (i'm not apportioning blame, I'm just stating the facts which make it difficult for me personally to have sympathy to their situation) - there was a babysitting service and it wasn't used, they chose to go out to dinner and not eat on the balcony, they earn extremely well and did not employ a nanny to take on holiday with them ,anything could have happended in half an hour/an hour between checks WITHIN the apartment (drowning,electricution,fire hitting head, 4 year olds are very independant and she might have woken and thought she'd go find mummy/daddy) the exit doors could not be seen from the restuarant. This is not the case that they turned their back for a second in a busy area and she was snatched, nor that they were also sleeping when it happened, that they did have a babysitter and it happened then.
in whatever situation a child is taken the perptrator is the worst kind of evil and it gives me great hope that there are good people out there that just want to help in whatever way they can (although i do worry about those that want to but cant really afford to and we are not talking about a poor family needing help are we)
i just get annoyed at the fact that they APPEAR to be seeing that they are entitled to all of this, when they should be showing they are extremely lucky to have such a caring and thoughful home nation.

when nothing happens to the child the mother/family get lynched in the press for what might happen when leaving their child home alone, if something does happen ,like the child going missing, the parents are vindicated from responsibility. like i said i'm confused.

i can't believe some peoeple truily believe they are so fuckng perfect.

i wish you many teenagers.

Custy, that curse is interesting. My dd1 (13) was at work with me 3 weeks ago, before 'this' happened, when a man drew up outside, took his 3 sons out of the car and left a baby asleep in it. it was a hot day in a car, kind of day you'd leave a window open for a dog. DD1, off her own bat, went outside and sat on the windowsill to keep an eye on the baby. Ds is 15, ocasionally babysits along with a friend for 2 small girls. When he heard about Madeleine he couldn't believe anyone would leave children asleep alone. Neither of them was influenced by their own experiences, as all 3 of my kids were 'wakeful' and could never have been left.

ahh perfect children o h joy.

please would most of you go and look in a mirrow, please do not tell me that post my thoughts which do not agree with yours that I lack humanity/empathy/am nasty etc etc.

i have only judged their actions now (see post 10:48 today), stated that i find it hard to empathy (more than just for their heartache of their daughter being missing) as i do not understand how they left their children alone. look in the dictionary my crime is my failure to find full power of identifying oneself mentally with but i started this thread to try and understand people (but all that happens is i'm accused of being lower of the lower lol )

what was so wrong in suggesting the parents should be telling others not to do the same so others can avoid their heartache because once is too often. i have stated before anyone who had a child snatched from them/ hurt when they are in the same vincinity has my complete empathy because it could happen to anyone. the McCanns situation could only happen to those that leave their children alone and they should be pleading with people to never do it.

look at my earlier post of (20:02 20/05) where i ask the question of differences in press attitude whats the difference? both involved heartache both involved a risk and in my opinion both should have known better, how careful are we told to be about material goods more carefully when on holiday don't we?

THIS WAS A CHILD AND PEOPLE NEED TO SEE WHAT WAS WRONG, NOT TO BE JUDGEMENTAL TO MAKE SURE IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN AS THE LITTLE GIRL IS STILL MISSING.

this helps, pretending nothing was wrong with the situation does not. sorry but life's harsh.

i have never nver said the parents shouldn't be helped i just think they should be saying something that shows attitudes need to change

sorry hit the wrong button -
please would most of you go and look in a mirror, please do not tell me that by posting my thoughts which do not agree with yours that I lack humanity/empathy/am nasty etc etc.

i have only judged their actions post disappearance (see post 10:48 today), stated that i find it hard to empathy (more than just for their heartache of their daughter being missing) as i do not understand how they left their children alone. look in the dictionary my crime is my failure to find full power of identifying oneself mentally with but i started this thread to try and understand people (but all that happens is i'm accused of being lower of the lower lol )

what was so wrong in suggesting the parents should be telling others not to do the same so others can avoid their heartache because once is too often. i have stated before anyone who had a child snatched from them/ hurt when they are in the same vincinity has my complete empathy because it could happen to anyone. the McCanns situation could only happen to those that leave their children alone and they should be pleading with people to never do it.

look at my earlier post of (20:02 20/05) where i ask the question of differences in press attitude whats the difference? both involved heartache both involved a risk and in my opinion both should have known better, how careful are we told to be about material goods more carefully when on holiday don't we?

THIS WAS A CHILD AND PEOPLE NEED TO SEE WHAT WAS WRONG, NOT TO BE JUDGEMENTAL TO MAKE SURE IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN AS THE LITTLE GIRL IS STILL MISSING.

this helps, pretending nothing was wrong with the situation does not. sorry but life's harsh.

i have never never said the parents shouldn't be helped i just think they should be saying something that shows attitudes need to change

mylittleimps... I think the problem here is with your timing of these sentiments and also you stating the obvious.

Of course, the children should not have been left and obviously the poor parents have, no doubt, been questioning their judgement of that awful decision every single moment since the disappearance of their daughter.

Your posts just come across as sanctimonous... it's all do do with 'there but for the grace of God etc....' There have been other cases in the past, a little girl was taken from a tent in a back garden quite a few years ago and I can remember that case also, just like it was yesterday, because my DDs have camped out in my back garden.

Maybe in time, the parents might well make some sort of statement to the effect you wish, but at this moment in time, all their energies are concentrated on trying to find their daughter. You seem to want them to show abject humility, in the most difficult of circumstances. Who knows how any person would react and they are reacting in just the best way possible for them, to enable them to cope with this awful situation and to try and keep things going for their twins.

I just think no-one can judge at this stage of what has happened...

I do agree the parents were wrong but there was an interesting article about the little boy Ben who disappeared in Greece. The mum said she was berated for not crying, but she said that her overwelming priority was to find her son and if she broke down crying then no one would understand her in the appeals.

Custy - I am nominating "I wish you many teenagers" for quote of the week

please see boycot rheads

no. Dont be such a bully

Littleimps I do know what you mean about people refusing to discuss your point and leaping on you. It happens all the time on MN. I think you just have to accept that there are some times when even though you may have a valid point you want to discuss, it's unlikely to happen because of the highly emotive nature of the subject. I have had this happen in the past (not on this topic) - I've wanted to make a valid point that disagrees with the majority and I've been jumped on, accused of not knowing what I'm talking about or accused of insulting people when I actually haven't at all. When a subject is very emotive, rational discussion tends to go out the window - a fact of life. I don't actually think that means you shouldn't attempt it, but perhaps it's true that here are some times when rational discussion isn't the most appropriate thing. If a friend is sobbing over her DH having an affair for example you would be unwise to start a rational discussion about whether she's put on too much weight recently. I'm being a bit flippant but you get my point.

I'd like to answer your OP but actually I'm not sure. As someone said, can there be an actual fixed distance where it becomes unacceptable? - it depends on so many things. We have left DS in a locked hotel room and eaten at a hotel restaurant in the same building with a baby monitor - he actually could have been taken easily by someone who had the key (you don't know who's working there and if they were quiet we wouldn't have heard them) and it gives me the willies now, thinking about it. But it's also true that you can never remove all risk and that millions of parents do do what Madeleine's parents did with no bad consequences. In fact if you think about other "risks" like taking your child in a car, the risks are far greater statistically, but everyone does it.

it's the adultness about some people that go on threads that makes me lol. i mean i am jumped on for admitting i find it hard to find empathy (and thus put the reasons why, and asked to understand other's views) and get called names without any real explanation - it is these people that vilify me for not having empathy that should check the meaning of the word, have they tried to fully comprehend where i'm coming from and given 100% emapthy to my position?

it is also because of how people that don't share their same view point get jumped on that i chose to stay out of the threads until i'd had enough of the press and mnrs getting the hump for anyone daring to discuss the situation and started my own instead of hi-jacking one with an OP i didn't really agree with or feel that my points/questions related to 100%.

by starting this thread i now know it is not me that is narrow and closed minded, i sought to expand my understanding - however it is those that can't/won't discuss and choose to just contribute with just slagging off another human being (because they "don't want the McCanns hurt") so good for you all those that have 100% empathy (without a second thought) and also speak to other people the way you do.

so being passed judgement on by such fair and equal people in a non-constructive way - interesting is the way to describe it.

snowleopard - but you had a monitor and you hadn't left the premises. i can see logic in that and i would be able to empathise if that had been the situation with the McCanns.

I've a feeling that MN and other parenting forums are becoming targets for the some of the more sanctimonious and evangelistic users of the internet who are maybe wanting more covergae than they usually get on their usual websites 'preaching to the converted'.

I'm pretty sure bobbysmum is a troll - s/he called me a liar on a thread I started about a nursery to get a reaction and YAWN

mylittleimps - what do you honestly want people to say to you:

Yes we wholeheartedly agree that we are wrong and misguided in giving the McCanns any sympathy?

Yes we seriously hope lessons have been learned?

Yes if we ever make a decision that ends in tragedy then we cannot expect any empathy/sympathy?

Because it ain't NEVER going to happen - not on this laptop

Littleimps
You have been jumped on but I think if you look through the thread you will genuinely find many people who have tried to respond reasonably/poloitely to you - many of whom have agreed with your opinion and others have supported your wish to discuss it. Others who have disagreed have also explained so politely. I think it would be helpful if you could recognise that rather than repeatedly seeing yourself as being jumped on.You will never get concensus on most issues - you will never get it on THIS issue at this time
I think the thing that you are not taking into account is how many people find it incredibly tasteless to be discussing this just now. I know that you feel that you have a valid point to make and that to discuss it is usefull - I do get that - but it is INCREDIBLY difficult for some.People are not upset because they choose to be and want to pick on you ( well some maybe) but they really find it dreadful that someone can be weighing up whether these parents are worthy of empathy or not.
I found your initiall post highly disingenuous so I'm afraid I was one of the jumper too.Your post to me read like someone determined to find another opening gambit to slag off the family. You seem adamant that you weren't so for that I apologise.
FWIW I think you are trying to make black and white rules in a very grey coloured area. I probably would not have left my children in the same circumstances but i have taken calculated risks and our life experience and circumstances give us each different ideas of how we should behave. I personally would never in a million years use a babysitter abroad - even one from a service provided by a hotel.I would probably leave my children alone rather than do that and in fact I have left my kids in a hotel room while i went down to the beachfront although they were older. I had my reasons but i have no doubt I would have been judged had I had a terrible outcome to that decision. I guess b I also believe there is an hysteria surrounding this case which will be interesting to reflect on in several years time when hopefully the issue will feel calmer. And I think that those who keep posting about right and wrong ways to parent our kids are really pushing their luck. I think people who are certain about things are a bit scary.

PS MN's I am new. I have heard about MN on the radio and through SN mums and that is what has brought me here in the last moth. i am not a troll - althgough it does sound exciting

If people look further than mumsnet, yo9u will find many many people taking OP's thinking

People may appear to be new but that is not alwsays the case

Everyone is entitled to a differing view, if it isn't in the majority, you will get shouted down on here

Other forums aren't scared of speaking their minds and it seems to be the majority view elsewhere, that people are wanting questions answered and aren't all being 'poor parents'

Most places I've visited all say the same thing, parents wrong but please let that the child be safe.

Madeleine is barely mentioned anymore, it's all about the parents now

In this instance, and if we're to believe the media, the person who has taken Madeleine was not an opportunist but this kidnap was planned. Therefore she could have been taken later on during the evening when her parents were asleep next door.

The McCanns are obviously intelligent people and made an informed decision about leaving their children. As parents we make these decisions every day. We cannot make decisions based on 'what ifs'.

In this case their intelligence was highly flawed. And does that mean that because they are intelligent, it was ok to do a stupid thing? Some who was a bit dim and did the same would have been wrong then?

If it was planned, surely the whole point is they were watched, the evil bastard knew when he could take her? Would he/she have risked it with parents in the building? I doubt it.

The abductor had the chance because they had done the same thing for a least a few nights, he/she knew that once the parents had checked he/she had at least 30 mins to go in and grab and no one would would relise til the next check

I doubt very much this would have happened if the parents hadn't left them alone for a number of nights.

And again, had Madeleine simply let herself out to go look for them and had a tragic accident, would her parents be treated with such empathy/sympathy

And to be wished lots of teens, thank you, I have 6 over 13 and love teens, and when the younger 3 get there.....I will enjoy them too

Look, if you go on a parenting site and declare that you have no empathy for parents who are going through more anguish than any of us will ever suffer, and you furthermore add that you don't like the look of the parents because they are richer and more educated than you (because that after all, is what is behind some of this malevolence) just don't be surprised if people don't treat you like you're Mother Teresa.

I fail to understand why unattractive people feel the urge to go on to world wide web and declare to all and sundry that they are deeply unattractive. But for those who want to do that, that is your right. Just don't be surprised that more intelligent, nicer people than you scorn you.

Moomin - I am not a troll, I expressed an opinion. I was under the impression that expressing an opinion was the point of a debate. I didn't realise that the only opinions welcome were those shared by the few people who appear to dominate these boards. It seems to me than anyone who dares to disagree with the majority view here is labelled a troll or worse.

And I don't see any evidence that I'm less intelligent than the majority here either. Case in point FireFlyFairy2's post at 18.13 last night. What was that if it wasn't nasty? But I notice it didn't get deleted.

This is my first post on any of these opinion threads so am not one of chosen few. Have read this with my mouth agog at the nastiness and lack of empathy shown to a family (parents and Madeleine) going through hell.

Bobbymum - it would be better if you were a troll as that would mean that you at least didn't believe the vileness in your comments. So so glad i don't know you in real life