In England the McCanns would be arrested

[LostPuppy]

Off the bat, I of course hope with all my heart that Madeleine is returned safely

But her "parents" are a disgrace. They left Madeleine and two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie sleeping in the apartment ON THEIR OWN. They had taken turns to return from the restaurant to check on their children.

Now hang on! In this country that is illegal, for very good reason.

Even if they 'checked on them' every five minutes that's plenty of time for one of the kids to wake up and try to go to the toilet and crack it's head open slipping on the bathroom floor, or something equally disastrous. They'd never hear the screaming from a bloody restaurant down the road!

Obviously it's unlikely, but I just cant comprehend the mentality of leaving three children under 3 alone on their own, ever, let alone at night in a foreign country!

3 and no more, I didnt say that other people wernt doing enough, all I know is that the McCann family are doing an amazing amount of work to keep their specific campaign in the public eye - please do not put words into my mouth for the sake of an argument - Im just not interested in doing that. I have other stuff I could respond to on here but i 'm not going to involve myself any further in this ridiculous, petty thread.

huffpuff yes I think the tide is beginning to turn a bit.

I think that posters is one thing, if it was my child I would want the same, but I think that maddy days and yellow ribbons are just ott, and tbh I, and a lot of people I know, lost a lot of respect for the family when they set up a fund for people to donate money.

They are not from a poor background. A lot of people that donate to their fund probably earn in a year what the mccanns earn in a month. I understand that they want to stay in Portugal but there are personal steps they could take to be able to afford that, like selling their £600000 house so they wouldn't have the burden of a mortgage for starters.

I wouldn't wish what they are going through on my worst enemy, and the fact they are middle class has no bearing on the way I feel about their child having been abducted, but it does have a bearing on whether I think I want to be contributing to their mortgage.

I don't know nappyaddict

I'm in two minds about it

Does it make much difference, I don't know

I read something that made me think hard on another talkboard [talkboard adultery [shame]] - when you take risks with your children, the risk should be in THEIR interest, and not in YOUR interest

e.g. a child getting older and being allowed to walk to school by themselves - risky but in THEIR interest to gain independence
Leaving a child alone in a house while you get something done - risky and in YOUR interest, therefore you shouldn't do it

Hmm made me think

Oh and also prehaps there has been a precedence set here, perhaps we will see more of this sort of thing when a child goes missing, I mean help from outside sources not the mass hysteria.

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I've done this a very few times, always based on a risk assessment when we are at the hotel.

I did it at a hotel near Dover where we put the children to bed in an annex to the hotel while we had dinner in the main restaurant. I checked that the baby listener worked in range (DH went to teh room and whispered and moved around while I checked I could hear), that there was a smoke alarm, that the patio doors were bolted and that access to teh building was restricted (only us and the couple we were with were staying in the annex). Happily had dinner with baby listener on, and we physically checked every 30mins or so.

I did it in a hotel where there was baby listening on reception. Again there was a smoke alarm and we checked that the receptionists listened in regularly (in fact a red light flashed on the baby listening device above the room number if there was any noise from the room) and we took a baby listener (which worked) to the restaurant too.

We did it in a very secluded country house hotel in Scotland twice, where the baby listened worked well and there was a smoke alarm in the room. As it was the hotel we married at and we were on our anniversary on both occasions the hotel staff physically checked for us every 15mins too, and came back and reported in to us when they had done so!

Probably more telling are the occasion where we haven't done it. All of these have been overseas, and the main reason in almost every case has been that there was a swimming pool between where we would have eaten and the room.

In any event, we have always done a long siesta (better for marital relations than dinner together, I suspect and taking the children with us to dinner. The back to room and drinks on the balcony/veranda while the children are in bed. We usually try for around 2 adult dinners a week on holiday though, (usually because we holiday in August when we have a birthday and an anniversary to celebrate) and we book a babysitter for these nights.

The last time we went to Mauritius there was a children's club in the evening and we let the children go from dinner to the club if they wished by themselves. We took the view that there was ample security staff on site and they were with some older children. On other nights all the children played on teh beach together where they were withing sight of us in teh restaurant.

This is a very long-winded way of saying that we have always done a risk assessment of sorts before deciding whether to leave the children in the hotel room alone. As I imagine the McCanns also did. Risk profiles vary from person to person, fo course, and what I would be comfortable with the next person wouldn;t be.

That doesn't make them a 'disgrace', it doesn't make them a bad parent, it is just a different assessment of risk.

There are no absolutes in parenting except in the minds of the narrow-minded, imvho!

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From what I've read - this was not an opportunistic crime - she was taken, seemingly deliberately, in which case - they would have waited for any opportunity when the parents' backs were turned - this could have been in a supermarket, at the beach - anywhere! If Madeleine was the child they wanted - they would have found a way to get her. This is what is truly terrifying.

The predator is to blame for this dreadful event.

I'm curious...

I can sort of understand why people might want to go to dinner on holiday without their children, but why would anyone want to go to a resort where children are banned after a certain time? How can any company claim that to be "family friendly"?

But how about when you opt for a MW holiday with the express purpose of a child free holiday?

I agree o mont (again)

So if they ahd all gone for dinner, parents ahd a few drinks and slept heavier than usual, and not woken when intruder came in- what then? would they face this furore?

I've certainly ahd a few drinks whilst ds's have been in bed

Ah wannabe ? got there before me

montmerency, exactly!

This is the point people seem to be missing, and the poibt I was trying to alude to when I mentioned my in law's child being abducted in the US.

I'm not sure I get the whole MW thing anyway TBH. WHy go on holiday just to spend time with a whole load of Brits - why not just go to Cornwall or somewhere instead?

I also would not like to be dictated to as to when the children can have dinner or not. It's supposed to be a flipping holiday, which in my book means I decide when wehre how with whom I choose to eat my dinner!

But the apartment was unlocked wasn't it? Which is why they waited two hours to call the police, because the assumed she had walked off? (Is that right?)

MW Holidays sound ghastly...but that's not really the point, is it?

I agree with the OP, and what's more I don't think the child was abducted. There's no evidence to support it. Far more likely that she wandered out and got lost or trapped somewhere.

If so, it raises an interesting question about the parent's culpability in the eyes of the law. The grandmother of the child who was savaged by the rottweiler was charged with murder. She didn't mean for the child to be killed. However, she was responsible in the eyes of the law.

Should these parents escape such a charge in the event it is found that the child simply got out of the room? Not in my view.

And again, also been asked before; has it been conclusively proven that the child was abducted as opposed to wandered out of an unsecured room in search of her parents?

[mmm all this talk of dinner, beaches and siestas is making me crave a nice holiday]

bobbysmum have you not realised yet that the police know how to check for evidence of an abduction, whether they publicise it or not?

MP in the intests of keeping some attempt at a rational discussion going, perhaps we shouldn't speculate about what happened to Madeleine or WW3 will start again

About the tide turning on the family, I don't think it is, but the Meedja has never been more prevalent in peoples lives as it is today. All of it including yellow ribbon days etc is a mass gathering of people who just want to protest in their own way. I think Mothers are facing up to their most awful fears and people in general are using this to ......need a word.... vent their frustration at incidents like this happening.

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A little concerned about the comment re: the McCann;s personal finances, their middle classness and their salaries - the fund has been set up to try and find their daughter and in the future, other children like her.

Methinks it is dangerous ground to be discussing the level of their salaries/outgoings - this is none of our business. I am sure that they, in their day-to-day lives as doctors do not judge their patients on such matters and that they treat each individual equally.

Donate money if you feel the need or not - discussing whether they should sell their home is outrageous.