In England the McCanns would be arrested

[LostPuppy]

Off the bat, I of course hope with all my heart that Madeleine is returned safely

But her "parents" are a disgrace. They left Madeleine and two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie sleeping in the apartment ON THEIR OWN. They had taken turns to return from the restaurant to check on their children.

Now hang on! In this country that is illegal, for very good reason.

Even if they 'checked on them' every five minutes that's plenty of time for one of the kids to wake up and try to go to the toilet and crack it's head open slipping on the bathroom floor, or something equally disastrous. They'd never hear the screaming from a bloody restaurant down the road!

Obviously it's unlikely, but I just cant comprehend the mentality of leaving three children under 3 alone on their own, ever, let alone at night in a foreign country!

I think the trouble with intervening in what are quite frankly borderline cases is precisely that different parents have different ideas of what is acceptable.

I leave my children in the car while I pop into the post office. I know other people, in RL and certainly on MN who would never countenance such a thing. Should they intervene? What about leaving your child in the car on a petrol station forecourt? Clearly the child is not suffering psychological damage as a result of neglect here. So it's all about risk of actual harm.

In a risk assessment you take into account not only what could happen, but how likely it is to happen and make a judgement accordingly. Different people will have different ideas of what constitutes an acceptable risk in these cases. The notion of intervention here worries me.

Yes the notion of intervention worries everyone. Me too for that matter. But if you don't intervene, or intervene too late, really terrible things can happen.

Intervene too late? Surely you mean in cases in serious and sustained neglect? Not one-off incidences of behaviour which some consider to be acceptable and some do not.

I would like to know how this proposed law would be followed up

Social Services are already working way over their capacity and i've seen them refuse cases that I have considered real, genuine risk (seven year olds out alone at 3 am, that sort of thing)

The idea that they have the ability to get invovled in cases that are usually a matter of perental philosophy is not only laughable, it would out those kids really genuinely at high risk even more so, because of the lack of available SS time

And there is an acceptable risk level!

Leaving a child alone in a bedroom at night is an acceptable risk

Driving a car anytime is an acceptable risk

Everything has some inherent risk attached- even if its the risk of being too overbearing and protective a parent.

In all frankness, which do you think is most likely to end up in a nightmare scenario? Driving a car or leaving a sleeping child alone for 30 minutes?

Well quite Peachy. In my view a child is more at risk in the car on the way to the airport than being left asleep in a room. I THINK the difference is that driving isn't really an avoidable risk, whereas the other is an avoidable risk.

I'm not sure whether the law actually needs changing.

What is right for some 15 year olds is not for others. There do have to be shades of grey.

There are also some areas which are beyond grey and into black (or white).

The discussion has been interesting for me because I have met some parents who would leave their tots alone while popping out. I had not met any previously. So what I thought was very clearly black, might just be dark grey.

No-one would imagine that letting a 10 year old out on his bike is illegal. But leaving a tot alone? Isn't that clear? Apparently not.

So I think I have learned something.

A lot of journeys are avoidable though aren't they? Most people could reduce their journeys quite significantly witjhout giving up essential jurneys (not me, but only coz I'm not used to the Espace yet and only drive it when I HAVE to LOL! But with our previous car I could have )

Back for a bit.

Quattro, intervention wouldn't have worked in this case.

Or in many cases. What are you going to do? call the police everyt ime you see soneoen leave their child unattended for 5 mins in a car? Grass your neighbour up for sitting in the garden while her baby is sleeping upstairs? Knock on people's doors and ccost them for letting their kids play out?

Not really relevant to this situation, but it does worry me how LITTLE responsibility kids are given these days - I've seen it written on MN that a 15 year old shouldn't be left alone. Well at 15 you can legally babysit, and in 1 year can leave school and get married! I woudl really worry if someone got married having never been left on their own...

If we spent our whole parenting careers risk assessing every single scenario whereby our children could be placed in harm's way, then we would never leave the house.

I appreciate we are talking about young children here but thinking ahead - Do we want to create a generation of teenagers who have never left the house on their own? Surely our children need to be able to take responsibility for their own actions - they need to be armed with the tools for keeping themselves safe on the streets. Keeping them attached to our apron strings is not going to make them streetwise.

I accept the need to debate here - but the original post using inverted commas on the word, parent, really was most offensive. It is more comforting to read posts from those of us who are interested in the issue beng debated - whether or not to leave a child alone - rather than holding the McCanns up as an example of what not to do. In my work I am in contact with a number of neglected children - Madeleine McCann does NOT fall into that category.

accost them , I meant to say. damn this keyboard.

Yes it is clear. But the law states that any child under16 should not be left unattended if that leaves them open to danger (or some such words). We all seem to agree that there is room for discretion which is the case at the moment. But making it illegal in a blanket fashion would change all that. The McCanns used their discretion. Sadly they made a wrong call.

You'd have to define alone as well

Many people wouldn't leave their 2 year old to pop down to the flat below.

But my friend (as an example) regularly does so, as the inhabitant of the granny flat is her extremely senile Dad, and if she hears the smoke alrm going / screaming etc she has to just run

But I don't think anyone could criticise her

Slightly off topic, tortoiseshell, but yes. If we're talking about toddlers, then no, but with older children I think it's incredibly sad that kids don't tend to have the freedom they used to, certainly in the 80s when I was a youngster.

I agree montmemnrency, I have woked with negflected / abused kids and frankly most people wouldn't even believe what goes on every day in the real world

Lemon tree said
"Clearly none of you 'I would never ever leave my children for a nanosecond' have ever been on a MW holiday. The whole PURPOSE of this kind of holiday is that, having spent the day with your kids at the pool/beach you can leave them SAFELY in their room and pop downstairs to the RESORT restaurant and have a bite to eat with uyour husband. "

You simply CAN NOT safely leave a toddler on their own. EVER. in your own house or on a holiday. If you do you are asking for trouble. I m not wishing bad things on anyone, but this is NOT A SENSIBLE plan. It may feel like a safe resort, but the bedroom and bathroom are full of potential dangers. Being more than two seconds away from my toddler children is just too much for me.

Of course, the chances of something happening are minimal, but why increase those chances, just for a glass of sangria?

'You simply CAN NOT safely leave a toddler on their own. EVER. in your own house'

codswallop.

I've often left my toddler alone safely (C Beebies is a Gift From Above) to, for example, go tot he loo (I am not changing a tampon with an over inquisitive 2 year old in the room, and much less a mooncup that needs rinsiing)

Never left them alone in a house / flat or anyhting but really, there are limits! I mean what about at night?

some way down the thread someone said that clearly posters who found it unacceptable to adopt this scenario had never been on a Mark Warner holiday as though if they did they too would be converted or would have been converted

I put forward the idea that lots of people have looked at the ethos of that type of "child friendly" holiday and realised it is not for them

I would agree with that PBW, even if we could afford it we wouldn't be able to fit in with the guidelines

I don't actually know where this thread is going...

ooh i thoguht you were quoting me then peachy

LOL Coddy!

I can see the confusion there.

Though I can't imagine you being quite so precious

I agree Peachy!

Is it wise to live our lives thinking that the mad axeman/child snatcher or any other form of mortal danger lies in wait for our children around every corner?

I honestly think that I would go mad with fear and worry if that had to be the case. The sense that no place is safe for our children anymore - leaves me feeling very disheartened with the world.