In England the McCanns would be arrested

[LostPuppy]

Off the bat, I of course hope with all my heart that Madeleine is returned safely

But her "parents" are a disgrace. They left Madeleine and two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie sleeping in the apartment ON THEIR OWN. They had taken turns to return from the restaurant to check on their children.

Now hang on! In this country that is illegal, for very good reason.

Even if they 'checked on them' every five minutes that's plenty of time for one of the kids to wake up and try to go to the toilet and crack it's head open slipping on the bathroom floor, or something equally disastrous. They'd never hear the screaming from a bloody restaurant down the road!

Obviously it's unlikely, but I just cant comprehend the mentality of leaving three children under 3 alone on their own, ever, let alone at night in a foreign country!

NKF - I think the majority agree its probably not a good idea. Knock a few percent of that figure before this happened, though. Knock another few per cent off when people actually get out in the sunshine and have a few drinks and think 'oooh it'll be alright...we'll pop back and check every 5 mins'

It's not really on, no (imo).

Just like its not really right that people pop out to get petrol and leave their babies in the car (what if a madman jumped in and drove off with them? What if the petrol pump explioded? What if the baby accicdentally choked on her dummy? etc etc). People make mistakes and poor judgements.

What a lot of helicopter parenting and halo polishing.

If you are calling Madeleine's parents a disgrace then I stand shoulder to shoulder with them.

One other thing is if a child left in these circumstances had wandered off and had fallen into the swimming pool would we be shouting down the OP?

but why is saying you wouldn't do it condemning the parents? what makes me annoyed is the fact that if people say that they wouldn't leave their children, they are accused of being holier-than-thou. Why? The majority of people wouldn't leave their children at home and go to the pub/the shops/the school run, so why is it acceptable to do it on holiday. Answer in short is that it isn't.

If it transpires that Madeleine mccann wandered out of the apartment and was picked up outside, will people still say that the parents were simply unlucky? I don't think so. yes unlucky to have been snatched if having wandered out, but if she wandered out, I think it will highlight just how at risk children are, because the chances of a child waking up and wandering are much, much greater than someone breaking in and snatching that child.

As for the parents, unfortunately they will have to be prepared to answer the question as to why they left their children. because the media will ask. maybe not now, but in a month maybe, or three, or 6, or every time that family are interviewed on television, which they will be, every time another child goes missing.

I can't believe people are even talking about this.
Yes, as it turns out, it was clearly wrong to leave them sleeping there but I reckon they know that now eh?
What's the point in going on and on about it. This slightly poor decision has been overshadowed by the events somewhat.

I could easily imagine a MNer coming on here and saying, 'What a lovely holiday we've just had in the Algarve. Things are so relaxed - not like here. I was able to leave my kids sleeping while I ate across the road'. And people would come on and say, 'How lovely. That's how things should be.'

Quattrocentro - what do you think? It sounds as if you work with lots of parents.

Quattro - I wasn't sure why you addressed me with Dear in the first place...but hey..I do agree with you - my point was never that the McGann's were right, simply that saying they are wrong (even in the name of debate / freedom of speech) is pointless and nasty in this context.

Callisto - yes, the self sacrifice thing did 'hit a nerve' if you want to put it that way. I didn't like the phrase when used in this context. Just my opinion.

Quattrocentro - can you post a link to the India Knight article? I'd be interested in reading it.

Unfortunately there are people who do leave their children unattended.
i.e. 16 mth child in his car seat, down the road from school while mummy picks up older child. Takes 20 mins during which 16 mth cried and screamed, through out. Is it ok or not?

Many parents obviously do exactly what the Mccanns did on holiday, I know one or two, but have never expressed my disapproval,

perhaps because I am too polite as well as I am aware that parents do have to make so many choices every minute of every day. I no doubt have done or do other things that others would find fault with. An open debate is useful,

MoodleStroodle. I love you.

or NoddleStroodle even! :-)

oh you know what I mean pmsl

Cannot believe this debate has kicked off again

Spidermama

This is more than a slightly poor decision. This is where we all came in, in fact. There is a genuine point about child protection here.

Sorry to repeat myself but it is an offence under section 1 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 to neglect or abandon a child under the age of 16 for whom a parent or carer has responsibility.

Although the law gives no detail of what amounts to neglect or abandonment, leaving toddlers in a different building, out of earshot, would in my opinion constitute neglect and abandonment.

IT IS NOT SAFE TO DO THIS. IT IS NOT LEGAL TO DO THIS. AND THIS PRACTICE IS NOT DEFENSIBLE SO PLEASE DON'T EVEN TRY TO DEFEND IT.

Message withdrawn

Lostpuppy, why cant you have a night out without your kids?
i get a babysitter and go out most weekends (boast)so you dont have to wait til theyre older!
one of my friends has a ds who is 16mths and hasnt been out since he was BORN!

(sorry for hijack)

Not meaning to be contraversial but please could someone tell me which Statute in English Law is concerned with leaving children unattended and what the law actually says.

Not your interpretation - the actual law.

I would never leave my children alone asleep in the house. Even when I go next door. She on the other hand happily comes around here and just brings the listener.My biggest fear would be if the house caught fire
However I do leave my children in the car when I pay for petrol as I have 3 small kids and I feel it is safer for them to be there than walking across a forecourt.
We all think different thought regarding leaving our children. I would never leave them outside shops in the car either. My mum used to leave us in the car all the time. When I was born all the mums used to leave the babie in prams outside the shops.

so when is a good time to discuss it then?

When Madeleine is found? and will it be considered wrong to discuss it if she is found dead? and if she isn't found should a certain period of time elapse before discussion of the appropriateness of leaving children should once again be allowed?

Aimsmum - we're the same, but as dh only sees his children at weekends, we are much more aware of our holidays being "family time".

Yes, sorry if you find it strange, but I do think the pressing issue right now is to find out where Maddie McGann is, not to sit around congratulating ourselves on never leaving our own LO's alone for 30 seconds.

I would be interested to know whether anyone who would have done the same as the McCanns on holiday in the past, would still do it now in the light of what has happened.

Has this canged what you would normally do or do you think this is very rare and unlikely to happen?

Personally, the swimming pool alone would have bothered me big time, but then my children do have a habit of following me around and coming to look for me.

We all set our risk taking barrier at different heights. It's a personal thing and when it goes wrong (usually in a comparatively minor way thankfully) we learn, feel awful and move on.

God knows I've had many a cold sweat reflecting back on what might've happened and felt damn lucky. Dd nearly got knocked over cos my eye wasn't on her for a split second. But every day is a series of risks and everone makes a million assessments that would differ subtly from another mum or dad.

God knows what that poor family are going through. I pray that little girl is safe.

I think it should be discussed because it's important. It's about our parental responsibilities and by the sounds of it there are legal obligations too. It's much less distasteful as a discussion than raking over the McCann's tragedy.

Noodlestroodle - here is a thread with a link to an article discussing the legal position... It does seem open to interpretation.

legal position

LoveAngel quite agree.

And btw the definition of neglect and abandonment is rather loose and I doubt this situation would fit it.