"Alfie's Army" and long term implications

[Andromeida59]

I think that there has been so much scaremongering around the hospital and expertise of the medical professionals that I genuinely feel that this will put some of from having their children treated because of the mass hysteria created around this case.

I have been gobsmacked by so much that I've seen around the Alfie Evans case. Personally, I don't think I've ever seen such rabid paranoia and conspiracy theories (lethal injections, Big Pharma, organs for cash etc.). I'm also trying to understand the mentality behind "Alfie's Army". I think what started off as well intentioned "thoughts and prayers" etc. has now escalated in to something that even the family will not be able to control. I also think it's only a matter of time before the "Army" turn on the father.

I do think that hospitals make mistakes and of course medical professionals will not always be right but there seems to have been an escalation in animosity since the Charlie Gard case. I think that next time a case of this type occurs, the outcome could be far worse because who would have imagined we would have seen protesters attempting to "storm" a children's hospital?

Also, really don't understand the "the child belongs to the parents ergo it's up to the parents to do what they want" attitude. I'm not a parent (and I don't think being a parent suddenly endows parents with a wealth of medical and legal knowledge) but surely people understand that children do not "belong" to them?

I agree with the comments about class. I was raised middle class and would once have thought these people were just braying idiots (still think they largely are) but life experience has shown me that overwhelming feeling of disempowerment, of being patronised by "experts". Amongst other things I've had extremely painful endometriosis foobed off as "normal" for years, and didn't get diagnosed as ASD until my 30s. I know professionals get it wrong. And I've noticed a vast difference in treatment when I'm viewed as, say, a psych patient or benefits claimant, compared to other situations where I'm "read" as middle class. I think there is a lot of difficult to articulate and totally legitimate anger, that comes out in random places and dangerous populist movements.

However, there's something else. A lot of these people don't actually seem to care about anybody - they just show their "care" when it's something or someone popular. And this cuts across social class and education. These people aren't genuinely trying to make the world a better place, or stand up for the underdog - quite the reverse, they are jumping on the bandwagon precisely because it's popular, for some kind of weird gratification.

Before the Army is sneered at, why did the people that we know are well educated also spread false information and give ridiculous analysis. For what's coming out of the US, you could say that their Doctors, Lawyers etc aren't educated. Then we had the Italians, Polish, Germans and the Pope spurring this on.

It’s a good point.

There’s been a lot of it about trans and economics and all sorts of things lately, actually. Being seen to have the right opinion is more important than using your brain properly in some circles.

Re education standards, my DD is Dyslexic and has ADHD. In the 90's a child in Liverpool had to be seven years behind their peers before a referal to an Educational Psychologist went in. I paid for a private report and the initial Solicitor's involvement to get the LEA to accept the diagnosis. For families that couldn't afford that (TC hadn't starred yet), their child went without an education. Standards went up slightly, then dropped again and has been declining. It took the Murder of James Bulger for truancy to be followed up. The benefit system doesn't support a Young Person on an apprenticeship, or in Work, the family overall can be worse off.

The Police has let the drug issue build up. I live 10 minutes away from AH, I've spoken repeatedly about where I live. The lads don't stand a chance, they are being written off. Norris Green (were Shaun Mercer was from) isn't far away, they were also allowed to become under the control of Criminals.

Being seen to have the right opinion is more important than using your brain properly in some circles.

So, so true, Battleax.

Haribo My DH is an oncologist and has had to call security twice in the last few weeks to have patients relatives removed after they "kicked off". The treatment plan wasn't good enough, nobody had even considered cannabis oil...

Hmm. I know of someone who tried cannabis oil (it didn't work). But they were middle class, well educated... And they continued conventional treatment, and read up on loads of stuff and did it all carefully measuring doses etc. They didn't threaten hospital staff...
Not quite sure how to put this into words, but it seems something about the messenger rather than the message...

I think the parents have clearly started the grieving process which has promoted their behaviour. With FB, the Dad in his North Face gear, giving media updates, going as far as to ask the Pope to come to Liverpool, like the professionals will say, oh the Pope is here, of course Your Holiness take this child, who we feel won't travel well at altitude and succumb to fits, even potentially life threatening or fatal ones, which will make it all pretty pointless.

I understand the parents feelings, no one wants to lose a child.

I have to question supporters who are not family or friends, going as far as to try and storm a CHILDRENS HOSPITAL, which has VERY POORLY CHILDREN inside and attending appointments.

For one second imagine having a child with ASD and other issues, going to what is meant to be a safe place, seeing mobs of people plus police at the entrance. It's going to be really scary. Actually regardless of ASD it's going to be unnerving for the poor children.

I believe they have tried all they can, I also believe it would have been nice to let him be supported so he could have friends and family celebrate his second birthday. It was said the trainee law student who was advising them was somewhat deluded, that being said, I also query the the same judge who said no the first time, being chosen for subsequent hearings. I also query why the appeals court dangled a carrot in front of them, when they must have been able to pre-empt the negative result.

Here's to hoping they get to take the little boy home, not absconding with him across Europe. That really won't do them any favours. If as the Father believes, there is a chance of the little boy living months if not years unsupported, enjoy that time at home working with the palliative care team.

I feel sorry for the parents as they are obviously grieving, they don't want to let go, it's not immediately apparent what they'd be able to do in Rome or Germany. Maybe that's a lesson to be learnt from, that most have good intentions, it doesn't always ensure a miracle will happen.

The specialists said brain tissue cannot regenerate, the specialists have consulted with other specialists who advised unfortunately there is no happy ending. This isn't a small hospital in the middle of nowhere, they work hard to deliver the best treatment they can.

That is something the supporters need to focus on. That they did try for over a year to no avail.

I am from a very poor refugee, less than working class back ground. My father and his siblings 'bettered' themselves and had academic qualifications, I grew up with people all around me working hard while stressing how important it was to be part of society and living this by example.

My children are growing up with pernicious ideas being whispered to them via all sorts of Social Media and I actually now feel that my most important job as a parent is to teach them to think for themselves, learn quite sophisticated critical reading and thinking skills, asking themselves who is reporting what and, crucially, why, to what end?

I am en 'expert', I know how wrong the most expertly held opinion can be, because even experts are human with all flaws and faults that entails. IMO empowering patients to ask questions, do their own research, become their own 'expert' of how their condition affects them, is hugely valuable and important. It should not distract from quite how complex medicine can be and things like mitochondrial disease are not simple things to explain or understand (I know I struggle).

Garbles post, but all these things are on my mind.

And yes, awful when 'right' opinions are held in higher regards than more differentiated difficult ones.

Peace and love to all Koreans

Before the Army is sneered at, why did the people that we know are well educated also spread false information and give ridiculous analysis. For what's coming out of the US, you could say that their Doctors, Lawyers etc aren't educated. Then we had the Italians, Polish, Germans and the Pope spurring this on.

Absolutely! I think I gave an example of an isolated person upthread and a PP mentioned the refusal to believe in real technical constraints re. online porn - another very good example.

In fact, it's something I see every day in my job among young, university educated graduates. They don't tend to go full braying mob in that setting, of course, but the refusal to engage with complexity and ambiguity and the insistence on simple answers and deafness to these being challenged is a definite thing. It's something I find worrying and challenging to try and train out of them but which I can't ignore - among other things because I'd be failing in my duty to keep them safe from legal jeopardy (due diligence is a bit of a problem if you're unwilling to have your preconceived notions challenged).

This may be a bit controversial, but I don't think it's necessarily a class issue per se - more of a 'poverty of the mind' one. Sure, some of the associated causes etc. may be working class - but, on some very fundamental level, I recognise a similar mindset in our resident homeopathy believing, yoga-as-medicine (and I do love yoga!) militant vegans on a crusade against people's tuna mayo sandwiches in our office fridge.

People behave irrationally in times of crisis. I'm sure a Doctor would know that.

Like it or not, but since the Organ Scandal in AH, the Hillsborough disaster, the covering up of Jimmy Saville and other child abuse, we will never take a Professionals word as Gospel. I have a News feed on my Phone and there isn't a day goes by that there isn't another Doctor/MW/Hospital paying out because of their mistakes.

Couple that with the way poor disabled people are being treated and the stopping of the Lower Classes breeding by the stopping of benefits for children and this is the point that we are at.

Oh, fecking cannabis oil!

It has not worked for the MS patients I have seen it used in. I totally accept that it works for other people.

It does not cure cancer. Or MS. Or many many other horrible conditions.

I do accept actual cannabis makes life seem better though - no personal experience, but convincing anecdotal evidence

Nobody should take any opinion for gospel.

And not everybody in crisis threatens to attack or rush a hospital.

Your arguments don't fly, Birdsgottafly.

ETA: example chosen on the basis of yet another email in my inbox just now - most of the vegans I know are lovely and take themselves and their kids to a doctor when something's wrong.

I was threatened by the distressed relative of a dying patient that 'they knew were I lived, I'll come by with battery acid, I know your children, you fucking do what I tell you to, I pay your wages' etc etc, you get the drift', because there was no hospice bed available that day over which I had/have NO control whatsoever.

So while I totally understood their distress (and actually shared it), I do not feel that there is any kind of justification for that.

This poor dying child is being made the poster boy for white working class oppression, and it's fucking grim.

Nobody is denying that the poor are getting a shitty deal, or that they're unjustified in their anger. Just that to project all that onto a completely oblivious sick child is, well, sick.

I had the sense from a few comments on my page that this isn't about Poor Alfie but, about saying no to the perceived oppression. I am very much on the side of the hospital. I feel an incredible amount of compassion for Alfie and his family.

However, its this mob that rose up around him.

I think the responses on this thread have been really thought provoking.

One thing that also struck me on these various "AA" posts was the overfamiliarisation of the family with people posting about the parents just using their first names and also stating that "we love you A". I wonder if this is the way of people trying to feel closer to the family.

This is why Harold Wilson built so many leisure centres; his vision was that we would never see 'full employment' again, so people would need hobbies, pasttimes, and places where they could congregate and bring a sense of belonging into their lives. He felt that everyone should work 3 days which would double the number of jobs, but would also give everyone a lot of leisure which needed to be occupied. Prescient, he was.

Sadly, we didn't follow that path. If we all only worked 3 days a week, if that were an ordinary thing, and everyone went down the leisure centre - Councils made it a priority - and it became a hub of acitvity and the centre of the local community, then there would be many fewer people with nothing much to do except get pissed off that their lives are so shit, and would be far too busy with fun and social stuff to waste their time on being part of an ill-informed 'Army'.

They would also benefit from the social levelling a lot of time spent down the leisure centre would bring.

I agree with you @Terfs. I have seen a recent rise in popularity of MC vegan mum's starting anti-gay groups locally as they're against anything "organic".

Jamon we wasn't discussing AE, in particular, just what makes people react they way they do.

PerfectlyDone people react differently and in some circumstances there reaction is out of their control. Especially if they've never been shown how to conduct themselves. Judges and the Legal system do allow for that.

TER absolutely. I live were I grew up. When I moved back, I'd forgotten about the mindset. It suits people to stay in that mindset. The way Women ignore Sexism.

If they break out of the mindset they start to question their place in Society. Which is why I think a blind eye was turned to Cannabis use. It keeps the young Males from thinking and fighting for their place in society.

I dont think anyone is disagreeing that there has been a lot of projection re this case.

The point is to understand WHY that's happening and how to prevent it surely?

To simply dismiss 'the mob' as stupid / violent etc does not work towards that (even if there are some cast iron examples) Nor does saying all professionals are lying gits (even if there are some cast iron examples) If this is the 'way society is going' then surely we should be trying to work together to promote greater understanding? Otherwise any 'powers that be' / media interests who have been manipulating it (if indeed they have) will achieve the 'divide and rule' they are after?

Jux that would have worked well.

Our (the UK's) model of Welfare doesn't allow for full employment. It does allow for winners and losers, booms and bust. That's fact, not opinion.

Aroomsomewhere that's what I've tried to do. With living in the area, but gaining a BA and working in Social Care all of my life.

Jux, that's an awesome vision of how a society could work! I had never heard of that.

Birds, yes, I agree with you there - how to conduct oneself in times of extreme stress is a learnt skill.

I was threatened by the distressed relative of a dying patient that 'they knew were I lived, I'll come by with battery acid, I know your children, you fucking do what I tell you to, I pay your wages' etc etc, you get the drift', because there was no hospice bed available that day over which I had/have NO control whatsoever.

That’s really awful - I’m sorry that happened to you. Totally unacceptable. And I’m more than a bit at the poster who immediately tried to justify it/explain it away. Threatening a HCP’s children, threatening them with battery acid. Just disgraceful.

Going back to social media, it seemed the first up takers of social media were well educated people, though they generally are the early up takers of new technologies.

I do wonder if less educated people were slower to up take social media as it requires a sufficient level of literacy to communicate only in words. In fact, I've noticed posts with very poor literacy have a greater dependence on emoticons to get their message across.

Now I see my better educated acquaintances abandoning social media, especially Facebook, citing mental health, addiction and time concerns, as well as it becoming repetitive and boring.

While at the same time it appears less educated people are whole heartedly embracing social media - it's free, simple to use, everyone must adhere to the same rules so it's more or less egalitarian, and you can easily locate others with opinions similar to your own. The connection that social media provides is filling the gap that once would have been filled in real life by more connected communities and families, and even workplace participation.

Social media is the most enormous time suck, but if you don't need to be at work or college, you most likely have lots of time to fill. It's probably a fantastic distraction from the realities of life, somewhere where you can receive lots of attention and feedback that you aren't necessarily receiving elsewhere. Alfie's Army must have felt so powerful coming together and being given so much attention.

It will be interesting to see if social media is also abandoned over time by less educated people, though I suspect that won't happen. Instead it will contribute to overall worsening mental health in society and we will see more large groups forming over shared causes, such as perceived injustices. None of that is really a good thing.