"Alfie's Army" and long term implications

[Andromeida59]

I think that there has been so much scaremongering around the hospital and expertise of the medical professionals that I genuinely feel that this will put some of from having their children treated because of the mass hysteria created around this case.

I have been gobsmacked by so much that I've seen around the Alfie Evans case. Personally, I don't think I've ever seen such rabid paranoia and conspiracy theories (lethal injections, Big Pharma, organs for cash etc.). I'm also trying to understand the mentality behind "Alfie's Army". I think what started off as well intentioned "thoughts and prayers" etc. has now escalated in to something that even the family will not be able to control. I also think it's only a matter of time before the "Army" turn on the father.

I do think that hospitals make mistakes and of course medical professionals will not always be right but there seems to have been an escalation in animosity since the Charlie Gard case. I think that next time a case of this type occurs, the outcome could be far worse because who would have imagined we would have seen protesters attempting to "storm" a children's hospital?

Also, really don't understand the "the child belongs to the parents ergo it's up to the parents to do what they want" attitude. I'm not a parent (and I don't think being a parent suddenly endows parents with a wealth of medical and legal knowledge) but surely people understand that children do not "belong" to them?

Peace and love to all Koreans

It certainly shows change is possible and things are no hopeless.

I’ll try not to blurt again though

And I’m more than a bit hmm at the poster who immediately tried to justify it/explain it away. Threatening a HCP’s children, threatening them with battery acid. Just disgraceful
Don't be ridiculous. noone tried to justify it

I agree with you @Terfs. I have seen a recent rise in popularity of MC vegan mum's starting anti-gay groups locally as they're against anything "organic".

I don’t understand that Andro, could you explain?

Is it because semen is not vegan?

Ah I suspect you’re onto it. I always miss the risqué allusions. What can I say?

That’s dumbfounding, though, if true. (That vegan isn’t would be extended into homophobia.)

Veganism.

Well, there's vegans (perfectly nice people on the whole) and then there's veganists and like any other extremist group IME they can be fecking scary!

I think there a whole number of things have given rise to this 'army'.

First of all you have the cultural milieu of Liverpool where ordinary people were treated terrible by the authorities and experts over Hillsborough and Jimmy Salville. Lots of people had heard rumours about Salville, and yet those in power did nothing.

I also don't think those who are middle class fully understand the battering down of those not in work or in work and reliant on benefits. The petty inflexible rules and lack of compassion shown that many of those with more power either don't care is happening, or don't believe it.

This all creates a culture of suspicion of authority and their rules and protocols.

I am also aware reading the face book page and twitter, that one very frequent theme is the lament that this would not be happening to Alfie if his parents were rich. I think this is untrue. But I think members of the Army identify Alfie as one of their own kind that they have a responsibility to protect. Any disenfranchised community I have known puts a lot of focus on protecting children in that community. And this adds I think to the mix.

Of course there is the influence of social media in egging each other on as it were.

And lastly the form of protest is a usual one for those with no access to power. If this had been a middle class mob, they would have met up and formulated a plan based on a media campaign and contacting various politicians and senior people in the NHS. This Army do not have that kind of influencing power, or the skills. So they do what disenfranchised groups do, they did a public protest on the streets. This has a very long history.

The ridiculing of the Army and its members, also reinforces their outsider status, as does the relative lack of media coverage until yesterday - something that they also complain about. Although they are not happy about this, an outsider status also tends to reinforce group cohesion.

Lastly we have the jumping on the bandwagon of various groups using these people. The pro Life lot and the Catholic Church. The Italian Government who are coming up for elections, plus the anti socialised medicine on the US. They are using this for their own ends. But the fact that people in other countries who have power are supporting the Army, will also reinforce their belief that they are right and that the authorities are wrong.

Sorry that was so long.

TERFous makes a very good point with the 'poverty of the mind' concept:

" This may be a bit controversial, but I don't think it's necessarily a class issue per se - more of a poverty of the mind one. Sure, some of the associated causes etc. may be working class - but, on some very fundamental level, I recognise a similar mindset in our resident homeopathy believing, yoga-as-medicine (and I do love yoga!) militant vegans on a crusade against people's tuna mayo sandwiches in our office fridge ".

The issue is, what can be done about that?

Jux, Harold Wilson may have been onto something. Although I believe similar utopias were tried (in the early days of USSR etc perhaps?).

My (pesimistic) guess is that the human animal always reverts to nature. The are those whould will take advantage of such wonderful opportunities, and those who will take the piss.

crunchymint, totally agree.

Those who will take the piss. I suspect you don't have as good an understanding of human nature as you think you do to dismiss a group of people in this way.

IMHO, one big part in initiatives (like AA) gaining momentum is that a lot of people read statements on social media, somewhat agree with them and then click share without reflecting whether these statements are true or not.

Well, there's vegans (perfectly nice people on the whole) and then there's veganists and like any other extremist group IME they can be fecking scary!

That’s kind of it, isn’t it? Extremism has gone mainstream.

It's all about simple answers, isn't it?
It's too distressing to consider that there are now simple answers when one feels empathy towards a suffering child and distraught parents.

Again, it has a lot to do with any other kind extremism: there's empathy for AA and his family's plight which is totally understandable and everybody can identify with, and then there's the whole 'Army' thing, threatening HCP/the hospital etc.
But I think crunchy has it in her long post - disenfranchised people, using the tools at their disposition, whipped in to a frenzy by social media etc.

I also don't think those who are middle class fully understand the battering down of those not in work or in work and reliant on benefits. The petty inflexible rules and lack of compassion shown that many of those with more power either don't care is happening, or don't believe it.

It’s much easier not to care, not to understand, to dismiss whole swathes of people as stupid, uneducated, or animalistic. There’s the lovely pay off of feeling superior then, as an added bonus.

The ridiculing of the Army and its members, also reinforces their outsider status, as does the relative lack of media coverage until yesterday - something that they also complain about.

Again very reminiscent of UKIP supporters.

Agree battleax.
I also do think lots of people are very dismissive towards anyone with views different to them, and rather than discussing and debating, reply dismissively. This means that different ideas are not mulled over. Often it is only by justifying your ideas that you realise the flaws in them.
And I see that on this thread as well. It is a general cultural trend that is fairly widespread, and social media encourages it. Look at the twitter fights where complex ideas are dismissed by those who disagree in just a few words.

Change My Views on reddit is the only forum I have seen that actively encourages meaningful debate and for people with different ideas to get together and discuss them.
I think we should have old fashioned debating clubs in schools again.

crunchy, what group of people would that be?

sticky I don't understand your question?

crunchy you said: "Those who will take the piss. I suspect you don't have as good an understanding of human nature as you think you do to dismiss a group of people in this way."

I'm not sure what group of people you mean.

I am also aware reading the face book page and twitter, that one very frequent theme is the lament that this would not be happening to Alfie if his parents were rich.

It wouldn’t be. It’s very likely that a rich persons chilf would not have gone to the NHS as their first port of call for assessment and diagnosis. Any parent with the money would be insane to hand over their child to the NHS, so the likelihood is that at the first mention of mitochondrial disease a rich persons child would have gone abroad to any other country where parents have more choice and control about the treatment their child needs. It’s vanishingly unlikely a private healthcare provider would try and stop them as they don’t ideologically buy into ‘the NHS must be obeyed’ philosophy.

Lastly we have the jumping on the bandwagon of various groups using these people. The pro Life lot and the Catholic Church. The Italian Government who are coming up for elections, plus the anti socialised medicine on the US

But you’re forgetting another ideological group jumping on the bandwagon. Those who favour death pathway care and are adamant the NHS is wonderful and always right and that the state to decide on children’s treatment than parents do are yet more ideological groups. And one even more pig headed than the army because they don’t even realise they are an ideological group trying to impose their viewpoint, they simply believe they are right.

Any parent with the money would be insane to hand over their child to the NHS,

I am struggling to comment on that, you are mistaken, truly. A tertiary expert centre like AH or GOSH or a few other centres around the world are the only places that can diagnose and manage these incredibly rare conditions. Even those few private hospital that offer paediatric services (quite rightly) would not touch something like a complex neurological disorder, whether it is diagnosed mitochondrial disease or not, with a bargepole because they would be totally and utterly out of their depth.

The NHS is far from perfect, totally overloaded and for many and complex reasons at risk of collapsing completely.

but to think that private care would have been somehow 'better' for AA or CG or any of the children in similar situations is just not the case.