"Alfie's Army" and long term implications

[Andromeida59]

I think that there has been so much scaremongering around the hospital and expertise of the medical professionals that I genuinely feel that this will put some of from having their children treated because of the mass hysteria created around this case.

I have been gobsmacked by so much that I've seen around the Alfie Evans case. Personally, I don't think I've ever seen such rabid paranoia and conspiracy theories (lethal injections, Big Pharma, organs for cash etc.). I'm also trying to understand the mentality behind "Alfie's Army". I think what started off as well intentioned "thoughts and prayers" etc. has now escalated in to something that even the family will not be able to control. I also think it's only a matter of time before the "Army" turn on the father.

I do think that hospitals make mistakes and of course medical professionals will not always be right but there seems to have been an escalation in animosity since the Charlie Gard case. I think that next time a case of this type occurs, the outcome could be far worse because who would have imagined we would have seen protesters attempting to "storm" a children's hospital?

Also, really don't understand the "the child belongs to the parents ergo it's up to the parents to do what they want" attitude. I'm not a parent (and I don't think being a parent suddenly endows parents with a wealth of medical and legal knowledge) but surely people understand that children do not "belong" to them?

When I became a parent I understood the desperate need to protect children. If a doctor said letting a child die is the best thing to do the adult part of me thinks "I am not a doctor so I trust them to do what is right". But as a parent, would I be able to let go of my child? I would probably be trying everything to keep my child alive as well.

The ' army supporters' involved in these cases are horrific though. They clearly have no real compassion as they are causing distress to other families at the hospital and don't care, they just want to further their own causes and use grieving parents and dying children to do it. Awful, selfish people

It’s blue collar in the way Bruce Springsteen is blue collar, let’s put it that way

What the hell is THAT supposed to mean???

Yeah, there's an overlap with UKIP, and? Is UKIP made up solely of the working classes or something?

Doesn't "blue collar" imply that these people are employed in some capacity?

As I keep saying, it’s self-selecting and cultural.

These “stick to the man”, “I’m a cowboy”, “we want our freedom” narratives are a reaction to wider economics and politics.

and? Is UKIP made up solely of the working classes or something?

No of course it isn’t. I’m obviously not explaining my take on this very clearly.

It is interesting. Agree who’d ever thought we’d see a protest outside a children’s hospital - truly great places full of brilliant people.

But I think we can consider what it’s like to be desperate, to be fearful and to reach out to whatever avenues we can. Someone who’s not on social media, or who doesn’t use FB will do something else.

If it’s money then they might pay for extra help or choose different medical advice (although in the AE case this might be limited)

In the same way a parent might use a friend if they know in the media

So we’re all more similar than not, we just have different avenues. We’re all saying help me - for my child

I do think that social media is a beast altogether worth considering, what will it mobilise on the future etc

On the flip side the I don’t trust experts phenomenon is possibly an outcome of such unequal societies - so many to blame

Battleaxe, I so very much agree with what you are saying.

So glad to have found this thread.

I followed the CG case last year very closely, and this year very deliberately stayed away from poor Alfie and who events unfolded.

Sadly, there is always a child somewhere dying or only being kept alive by everything modern medicine can offer and there weill always be some desperate parents who are suffering trying to make impossible decisions.
It has always been thus and, I suspect, always will be, the difference being that critically ill children with no chance of improvement and no quality of life can be kept alive longer and the echo chambers of social media. This combined with large numbers of people who need purpose and feel they are rebelling against some unseen, undefined power that is making their lives miserable as well.... well, a noxious and dangerous combination.

I agree, we need to understand better how to get these many people to engage in society, make them feel valued members of the fabric of our world and allow them to be heard without pandering to every ludicrous demand.

On the flip side the I don’t trust experts phenomenon is possibly an outcome of such unequal societies - so many to blame

There’s the whole Danny Dorling thing (apologies for terrible summary) about how the binman, the carpenter, the GP and gentry all used to live in the same village, too, so there was familiarity and trust.

But even once that melted away (this isn’t Danny D now) we all knew our GP, so there was someone you did trust to talk you through any medical thing that cropped up, small or devastating. It’s al those erosions.

*As I keep saying, it’s self-selecting and cultural.

These “stick to the man”, “I’m a cowboy”, “we want our freedom” narratives are a reaction to wider economics and politics*

I think you need to listen to some Bruce Springsteen songs, because that's not what he's about at all.

You're explaining yourself perfectly. You see the lumpen proletariate as big homogenous group of idiots who need to be explained to, by their betters, how to think/live/behave.

As Haribo says, some people are arseholes. That's not based on class. Most people who I know who you would count as working class despise twats like Alfie's Army.

I think it's mainly to do with perspective.

In the same vein as I have huge sympathy for the vast numbers of people in the States who have been absolutely shafted by their system/society, who are the working poor, who have nowhere to go with the health/housing/social problems, but was absolutely incredulous to see that they felt the multibillionaire Trump was going to fight their cause simply because of some sound bites, I just cannot get my head around all these many people thinking that there are simple solutions for very complex problems.

And as far as health goes: IMO biology is a bastard. The human body is amazing and incredibly complex, so unsurprisingly sometimes things go disastrously wrong, like in any complex system. And if that 'something' is your much loved child? I cannot imagine the pain. But rushing a hospital will not change biological fact. It just won't.

You're explaining yourself perfectly. You see the lumpen proletariate as big homogenous group of idiots who need to be explained to, by their betters, how to think/live/behave.

No, quite the opposite. I’m pretty lumpen prole myself.

What I can see is that people of all classes are choosing their own narratives and their own tribe, as it were. And there’s a big chunk of those who are going in a broadly Anti-Europe/Right to Bear Arms/Captain of our ships/Anti-authoritarian kind of direction. And they write themselves a very lone cowboy narrative.

Oh, and yes, some people are arseholes, in all classes and levels of education or wealth.

And what perfectly said.

My DH is an oncologist and has had to call security twice in the last few weeks to have patients relatives removed after they "kicked off". The treatment plan wasn't good enough, nobody had even considered cannabis oil and anyway everyone knows big pharma can cure cancer but it's just not profitable enough to actually let people use the cancer-killing drugs that actually work hmm One of the ejected relatives told the entire waiting room that DH was 'one a them suicide bombers' to boot.

Bloody hell. I'm very sorry that your husband had to experience that, Haribo. That's inexcusable behaviour.

As for why there are people free in office hours to protest outside Alder Hey, this would be because they're either working night shifts or other unsocial hours, or working part-time, or not working at all, in which case some of them are probably carers or on sickness benefits or pensionable age. For those who have no reason they couldn't be in employment but aren't, well, as my overly long post above said, what kind of work can you get nowadays if you aren't able to read and write to the standard of the average 11yo?

In past generations people left school at 14/15/16 and went straight into a job that they often held for life. If they didn't like the first job it was usually easy to get another one. In many cases, no qualifications were required and a blind eye was turned when it was obvious the employee couldn't read/write/do simple arithmetic. If you could operate a machine or sweep up the packing room without those skills, that was fine. Whatever minimum of training was needed was given on the job. The brighter, more capable workers might be able to move up the ladder through apprenticeships/evening classes/sponsored FE or HE courses. Trade unions did an invaluable job helping people get access to those opportunities.

Not many jobs like that any more.

What I can see is that people of all classes are choosing their own narratives and their own tribe, as it were. And there’s a big chunk of those who are going in a broadly Anti-Europe/Right to Bear Arms/Captain of our ships/Anti-authoritarian kind of direction. And they write themselves a very lone cowboy narrative

That has nothing to do with what you were saying before. And it also has nothing to do with the unfairly-maligned Bruce Springsteen, who is a massive democrat and writes about politics frequently.

That has nothing to do with what you were saying before.

It has everything to do with it.

And it also has nothing to do with the unfairly-maligned Bruce Springsteen, who is a massive democrat and writes about politics frequently.

Oh I’m not holding him responsible for the types his image sometimes appeals to. He told Trump to stop using one of his songs fairly recently, didn’t he? But nevertheless there’s a certain type who adore him who he doesn’t want anything to do with. Poor Bruce. Poor everyone and everything that gets co-opted.

Going back to the Echo Chamber effect, I noticed during the Brexit referendum campaign that my Facebook feed was overwhelmingly Remain. Any of my friends who promoted Leave were getting barrages of abuse. I got laid into pretty severely as I have had deep reservations about the long term future of the EU for many years and said so. After that I decided that for the duration I would only be posting pictures of the dogs and any particularly nice butterflies, flowers etc! Facebook is a major advertising tool for me and I do not need my name attached to a shitstorm.

On this forum where we are anonymous and therefore much more free to speak our own minds, there was definitely a closer balance between Leavers and Remainers. Yes, there is a slight echo chamber about Mumsnet, but I believe it is far less so than on mainstream SM.

using a pram (with baby) as some kind of impromptu battering ram

I hadn’t heard that. That’s even worse.

Thank goodness for Mumsnet. Obviously it can be very abrasive here at times but because it's anonymous for the most part, almost anything can be challenged here and is. And a good thing too.

Bloody hell. Peace has just broken out between the two Koreas. The war is finally over. Maybe not everything is gloomy!

The whole 'class' thing has changed as well: the traditional working class, knew their place, worked very hard, had values that they passed on to their children, and in return they had a secure place in society.

The totally disenfranchised swathes of society in which children grow up with 3rd generation unemployed family, who has never seen anybody get up and ready in the morning for their job, who have absolutely no perspective other than that they want to be like the Kardashians or become famous on BGT or a footballer being paid a 5 figure some per week? That's a whole other ball game.

And it has nothing to do with intelligence IMO, but with lived eduction, not the one you get at school (important as that is) but the lived example of kindness, being part of a bigger society (oh crap, now I sound like ShinyDave, remember him? ), recognising that a greater good is a valuable goal to strive for, recognising that as part of something bigger one is more than all the constituant parts, rather than just 'me, me, me', 'something needs to be done', 'in this day and age' etc etc.

Haribol, I'm glad you've mentioned the Docks going. The Merchant Navy was a big employer in Liverpool. We had factories everywhere.

If your DH wants to know why the people of Liverpool haven't got jobs, there are Sociology Books that could explain it.

We've lost vital retailer, PoundWorld is about to go and even the Jag Plant is laying off (thanks to Brexit).

Now thanks to the Bedroom Tax we have a housing issue for the first time and people are in poverty cycles again.

We've tried speaking out about us being the hardest hit by Cuts, the rising infant mortality rate, more deaths in the general population, but no-one wants to know.

"No one whose child is sick enough to be in Alder Hey is going to be in a position to put off seeking treatment."

Whiston Hospital, struggled, as did the Children's Minor Injury Unit, because Parents were avoiding AH.

Before the Army is sneered at, why did the people that we know are well educated also spread false information and give ridiculous analysis. For what's coming out of the US, you could say that their Doctors, Lawyers etc aren't educated. Then we had the Italians, Polish, Germans and the Pope spurring this on.