"Alfie's Army" and long term implications

[Andromeida59]

I think that there has been so much scaremongering around the hospital and expertise of the medical professionals that I genuinely feel that this will put some of from having their children treated because of the mass hysteria created around this case.

I have been gobsmacked by so much that I've seen around the Alfie Evans case. Personally, I don't think I've ever seen such rabid paranoia and conspiracy theories (lethal injections, Big Pharma, organs for cash etc.). I'm also trying to understand the mentality behind "Alfie's Army". I think what started off as well intentioned "thoughts and prayers" etc. has now escalated in to something that even the family will not be able to control. I also think it's only a matter of time before the "Army" turn on the father.

I do think that hospitals make mistakes and of course medical professionals will not always be right but there seems to have been an escalation in animosity since the Charlie Gard case. I think that next time a case of this type occurs, the outcome could be far worse because who would have imagined we would have seen protesters attempting to "storm" a children's hospital?

Also, really don't understand the "the child belongs to the parents ergo it's up to the parents to do what they want" attitude. I'm not a parent (and I don't think being a parent suddenly endows parents with a wealth of medical and legal knowledge) but surely people understand that children do not "belong" to them?

[WrongOnTheInternet]

Thank you Seahorses. Jamoncrumpets, do you know that all those people mobilised are of the working class? What does 'working class' even mean any more? Did you read the earlier pages where someone was talking about the entitled behaviour of a person educated in law towards someone knowledgeable about IT?

I've seen plenty of entitled behaviour from middle class people.

Why does the question of 'class' have to pop up at all? Britain is so divided and snobby on all sides.

[meddie]

This kind of behaviour has been around since time immemorial, in the old days it was called a lynch mob or a witch hunt. There have always been groups of people driven by emotions over facts and ready to jump on the latest cause or injustice. The only difference these days is social media allows them to connect a lot easier and in bigger numbers. They also get to whip each other up into a frenzy, with increasingly bizarre conspiracy theories and out do each other with who is the most offended, who cares the most. You could see it on the AA page with the increasingly outrageous suggestions on how to remove the child covertly.

[ShatnersWig]

Wrong I was accused of snobbery on a previous thread on this issue. I said I don't give a flying fuck what class anyone is, but anyone who thinks its acceptable to storm a hospital for sick children, block the road getting in and out of it and only letting you by if you "honk for Alfie", not giving a stuff about other terminally ill or sick children and their parents who have to read your views that your nurse is a murderer, that thinks shouting "burn it out" isn't going to scare those same children and parents, who send abuse to NHS staff, put their names and faces in the public domain in breach of a court order, is a fucking moron. Their class is totally irrelevant to me. Their behaviour is what counts.

[Creambun2]

@Battleax other than voting in the brexit referendrum to a degree these people rarely vote so politicians will continue to ignore them.

[Glassofredandapackofcrisps]

I'm white working class and I can't understand the mentality of these people. This whole case has highlighted to me just how thick some people are.

[KitKat1985]

Having watched the news footage of the Charlie Gard and Alfie Evans case, I note that the 'armies' in both cases had a real 'them and us' attitude, and seemed to have issues with professionals / what they deemed authority figures, and generally come from more deprived backgrounds. I think some of this is a general reflection in society that people from certain lower socio-economic groups feel unheard by people in more senior positions in society.

It is unfortunate that in both cases in my opinion they have chosen the cases of these poor children to turn into a media circus. Any rational person can see that these are deeply distressing cases with no winners or losers, and that the hospital staff have a duty of care towards the children concerned, which can sadly in some cases involve making decisions to minimise suffering and withdrawing life extending treatment.

I work as a nurse myself (although not with children) and have dealt with many situations whereby loved ones struggle to accept a patients condition or prognosis. It is ultimately a sign that they are stuck on the 'denial' stage of the grieving process, and whilst we have every sympathy, it would never justify us to continue to put a patient through treatment which would prolong that person's suffering, as our duty of care is always predominantly towards the patient, and not their family. It is never an easy decision to make that further treatment is not in a person's best interests, but that does not mean it is the wrong one. Given that in the case of Alfie Evans the case has been looked at repeatedly by a variety of medical and ethical experts, and heard repeatedly in the courts, then I think it is clear that the case has been given sufficient consideration in respect of the verdicts obtained.

[Alltheprettyseahorses]

Oh, come off it. Who's fuelling the fire? No one listens to the working classes. We're just sneered at, as this thread shows. But they do listen to middle-class, religious balloonheads, like the one on twitter who posts 'OMG get NOW at 2am, designed to whip up the crowds. She's the one on the telly. She's the one with a voice, along with the religious leaders and politicians enjoying huge platforms. Not us. If they hadn't picked up/exploited this story, poor Alfie Evans would be as anonymous as all the other desperately ill children in Alder Hey, no matter what his father did or said.

[WrongOnTheInternet]

Completely agree Shatner. I'm from the working classes btw.

What is going on in Britain looks like a socioeconomic collapse to me, a complete breakdown in trust. It'll be complex causes. Shouting about class and snobbery is not going to help.

[Mightymucks]

Oh Mighty you do spout some bollocks, as you did on previous threads, mostly because you think it's distasteful people even discussing this subject,

No, I think the sneering nasty way with barely concealed enjoyment many posters on the other thread discuss the case is distasteful.

Can you please provide links to sources that confirm that every other country in the world operates differently to the UK as you have stated?

If you’re too daft to use Google it’s not my responsibility to educate you on law and current affairs. This is exactly why that mob on the other thread are just the other side of the coin to the army. They whinge about how the army doesn’t understand the medical issues when they themselves (as this post from you shows) are completely ignorant of the wider legal context. The state in the UK exercises a great deal more power over our children than any other state does. From cases like this right down to fines for taking your children out of school for a day.

This is why the US and Italy have offered citizenship to children here. This is why a German air ambulance was on standby. This is why Spain supported Ashya King’s family. The rest of the world is horrified at how parents are treated in this country.

The mindless flippin’ bots who just parrot ‘obey the state, obey the state’ and pretend that the position of parents in this country is in any way comparable to any other civilised country are as deluded and ill informed as the army.

[Mightymucks]

That should have said Western state. I’m sure North Korea is probably a tiny bit more oppressive in this regard. Maybe Syria too.

[Astrabees]

The general cultural norm of stories about people who won't take no for an answer, who battle on against adversity and are prepared to try anything, and then are rewarded by being cured/winning/achieving as a result creates a climate where being realistic and accepting is seen as lacking. While society promotes the "virtue" of never giving up this situation is the logical conclusion.

[ThisIsTheFirstStep]

battleax I find it quite patronising that you lump all working class (C2DE) people in together with people like that.

Most people are NOT like that, they don't go around protesting about doctors trying to do their jobs or moaning about foreigners.

In my opinion, those kind of ignorant opinions stretch across all classes - I certainly know plenty of teachers, who I guess would be classed as 'educated' or 'middle class' whose opinions make me raise an eyebrow.

It is views like yours - that the working class/working poor/just poor - are some kind of huge lump to be dealt with and communicated with by their betters that are exactly the reasons WHY so many such people feel disenfranchised.

[Raglansleeve]

The 'army' will go looking for their next cause, but sooner or later they'll get tired of it - pity the poor family who doesn't get the SM avalanche that CG and AE families received - they'll be thinking their child is somehow less deserving.........

There is an occasional series on R4 called 'Inside the ethics committee' which discusses real NHS cases where difficult decisions have to be made with regard to care. It's fascinating and shows the knots that the committee members tie themselves in to ensure that the best is done for the patient.

The behaviour of the 'army' and their like will be what loses us the NHS. Demands for expensive and often untested/unsuitable drugs, the belief that life is sacred and should be maintained at all cost etc. We have lost sight, in our amazing technological age, that sometimes people die too young, despite all medical advances.

[Battleax]

@Battleax other than voting in the brexit referendrum to a degree these people rarely vote so politicians will continue to ignore them.

I think they could split votes if the conditions were right (there’s some dreadful new “movement for change” nascent political party buzzing about Twitter elbowing its way into threads), but I suppose I’m thinking about things like this where they’re making a big noise too.

[FranticallyPeaceful]

You’re not a parent and therefore don’t understand the out of control feeling it is when you can’t get the very best for your child. That’s where the anger/confusion/outrage is pouring from.

That said, my son is a patient at Alderhey and I know from experience that they really do put the patient first in regards to long term. They don’t care so much about comfort when a child is being treated, but they will if there’s nothing they can do for the child and don’t think there will be anything elsewhere. If they’ve made the decision, repeatedly, then I honestly think it’s the best decision. The doctors at Alderhey are amazing (nurses are GENERALLY decent but I’ve had my issues) and I would (albeit reluctantly) put my faith in them knowing what’s for the best.
There’s no magical cure anywhere else, just more attempts of diagnosis.

How many times do adults (and a lot of the time younger) get to a point where they just want it all to end? It’s incredibly common, but a young child can’t make that decision and so the parents need to think unselfishly.

I think at this point they should be focussing on his life quality, and somehow try to fight the urge for their child to outlive them. It’s so unfortunate, and it makes me so angry, but it’s just the sad truth - it needs to end for the child’s sake

[ARoomSomewhere]

an interesting thread, esp the posts by Battleax Terf and Gaspode

I dont want to comment on this case in particular but i do feel that comments such as 'ill-educated... embarrassing...enjoy trying to gain the upper hand...unemployed...white working class' do not help the discussion.

The internet and SM, in particular, has allowed the dissemination of information quickly and widely. There have been many cases of 'authority' having been revealed to have behaved badly from football ground tragedies to the BBC to the Catholic church to corrupt politicians. Blind Trust in Authority has gone, never to be regained.
I was speaking to my parents (white, working class, early 80s both) about this and they said: no doubt there was as much corruption in 'their day' but they had very little access to information about it and knew they could do nothing but vote in GEs so didn't expend much thought /energy on it. I think this has changed.

Add in the speed of SM which very much prevents critical thinking and 'outside interests' from the media / politicians / religious groups etc in cases such as this and you have a pretty toxic mix which helps no one sadly but leaves most people feeling frustrated, frightened and negative.

But, it does 'do' to consider the wants of 'the C2/D/E's'.
If groups of people consider themselves to be neglected / dispossessed they WILL vote Brexit / Trump / become a 'baying mob' and worse. The most dangerous people are those who feel they have nothing to lose.

[specialsubject]

re the charlie gard foundation - the charity was set up last year but the website was blank until last month. which is why people may not have known that anything was happening. now it says launch is 1st june. aims - research, and 'charlies law'.

[Battleax]

battleax I find it quite patronising that you lump all working class (C2DE) people in together with people like that.

I wasn’t, although maybe I edited myself down too much.

I think this loose movement, whatever it is, that is represented in these “Armies” essentially a blue collar movement, in the same way Trump followers are a blue collar movement.

I know there are big chunks of the WC that would have no truck with it, (as well as lots of of well off participants).

It’s more that they brand themselves as “voice of the working people”. They’re kind of seizing the working class identity and occupying it. If there wasn’t a genuine issue of the WCs being beleaguered and ignored it would be easier to demolish the lie, IYSWIM.

[ThisIsTheFirstStep]

It’s more that they brand themselves as “voice of the working people”. They’re kind of seizing the working class identity and occupying it

How are they doing that? I don't think anyone looks at those people as a 'voice of the working people'. They either sympathise with their opinions or they don't. No one who is working class would ever think 'yeah, those people are representing me'.

Where do the middle class get these mad ideas from?

Plenty of middle class people voted for Trump. Plenty of middle class people voted for Brexit. It must be so because if not, Trump wouldn't be president and we wouldn't be going through Brexit. The difference is that working class people tend not to be ashamed of their views, whereas middle class people say one thing and vote another.

[Battleax]

But, it does 'do' to consider the wants of 'the C2/D/E's'.
If groups of people consider themselves to be neglected / dispossessed they WILL vote Brexit / Trump / become a 'baying mob' and worse. The most dangerous people are those who feel they have nothing to lose.

Yes that’s it. Or, at least, some of them will, egged on by the millionaires who still see themselves as C2DE.

It’s why I don’t think the Welsh Brexit vote was the big headed act of self-sabotage it’s widely been portrayed as. It was something more like protest.

[Mousefunky]

I find it pathetic they are naming themselves an ‘army’, they are quite literally an ignorant angry mob seeking drama to try and give their empty lives meaning. I am also astonished that many celebrities (its even reached Hollywood...) are equally ignorant and posting in favour of the ‘army’s’ theories about Alfie being damaged by vaccines and the hospital simply trying to cover this up . Only yesterday, Milla Jovavich of all people who probably doesn’t even know where Liverpool is, was actually stating that she understood the abuse of NHS staff and would be inclined to do the same if it were her child .

[x2boys]

Class has nothing to do with it I'm working class we live in a council house but I found the behaviour of the "Army " utterly abhorrent i dont know what it is it isn't lack of education my dh left school with few qualifications and agrees with me , may be its people who can't be bothered to read the papers , watch the news etc and educate themselves on the truth? Some one I went to school with posted a status about thinking Alfie deserved a chance but said she knew nothing of the politics , red tape of it all so she clearly hadent read anything about his condition. .

[Battleax]

How are they doing that? I don't think anyone looks at those people as a 'voice of the working people'. They either sympathise with their opinions or they don't. No one who is working class would ever think 'yeah, those people are representing me'.

Some will and some definitely won’t, but I definitely think there’s overlap with, for example, a UKIP agenda.

It’s blue collar in the way Bruce Springsteen is blue collar, let’s put it that way.

[Mousefunky]

I am also tired of hearing people act as though Alfie is his parents property. He isn’t. We don’t own our children... He is an individual with his own human rights and quite frankly, his parents believe God will save him so that really says it all.

[Creambun2]

@Mightymucks - tbh you sound on the level of idiots in America howling about "being great" and that guns are a "right" to defend a person against the "state"