Christian Priests Rape Yet More Children, and again their church helps them

[DominiConnor]

\link{http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6594439.stm\Church of England rsponsible for yet more rapes

But it's all right, honest. No doubt the CoE will say "sorry".
Of course Bishop David Wilcox who smugly talks of acting in the "best interests of the church", will walk free. The police won't even interview him, let alone bang him up.

David Wilcox is worse than any paedophile. Rather than annoy his friends, he covers up for rapists.

Would any other group get away with being accomplices ?
In other threads supporters of the CoE smugly talk of child rape as a purely Catholic issue. They know that to be false, and come Sunday will put their hands in their pockets and fund the rape of children.

Makes me shudder. A teacher at dh's old school was 'let go' by the headmaster for similar reasons, if he gave a pledge never to work with children again. Case finally emerged a couple of years ago - the guy admitted it and was imprisoned. The headmaster conveniently 'couldn't remember' any details of the case when the LEA launched an inquiry.

Fortunately this guy never tried anything on with dh, but there are at least three men who have suffered as a result of his actions, and God knows how many other children may have been at risk during the intervening 20 years.

well put Ruty

DC your evasion of the facts weakens your argument.

I just want to make it clear that Eleusis isn't just me posting under another name to support my point.

She hits the next big fallacy of Christians who defend their churches over this.
The "it's the others" fallacy. As in
"it's not CoE, it's Catholics", or "it's not British, it's American Christians", or "it's not my parish, it's the one next door".

Never is your fault is it Eleusis ?
Always the "wrong sort of Christian", or "bad apples far away", or "I wasn't there that day".

Ah, ruty has a point, I did get it wrong about the Choir Master.
So let's recap the facts.
Christian educators somehow failed to spot multiple rapes by a Christian choir master.
Christian priests covered it up.
Christian bishops helped them
Christians knowing this was going on, happily donated money to the organisation involved.

But I accept that the worst thing in all of this was me getting the choir master thing wrong.
Ruty must feel very happy with her vindication of the CoE in all this.

No DC, my putting a fiver in the collection does not contribute to a choirmaster performing disgusting and illegal acts on children. There are figures of authority whose job it is to blow the whistle. The fact they they chose not to is the problem. Not my 5 quid.

No one would ever confuse me with you, and furthermore, my posts do not support your (weak) arguments.

"Christians knowing this was going on, happily donated money to the organisation involved. "

So, you think that I personally know these people?

If I thought there was child molestation going on in my parish church I would most certainly find a new one.

DC don't get your knickers in such a twist. You are starting to foam at the mouth again. I know you don't like it when anyone points out inaccuracies in your argument, but you really do have to come a little bit more prepared when your brain is engaged so lightly.

i do not go to church. Do you understand? You have no idea what i think of the church or the CofE. And believe me, i have a lot of experience within it. Some individuals have acted inexcusable here, i don't know how many. It is not the first time. I do not know how many paedophiles are safely ensconced and getting away with child rape in the CofE. you think you do, and you state as fact there are many and it is endemic. I cannot really argue with that as it is your opinion stated as fact. But i can point out inaccuracies in your argument so that is what i do.

Eleusis, your fiver does help child abusers, the legal bills are a big issue these days.
Do they tell you where the money goes ?
Really ?
Have they ever mentioned it ?
Bet they haven't told you their insurers are giving them serious grief.
But you didn't ask did you ?

Think it through, if millions of Christians refused to give money until the church sacked those who'd helped rapists, then the cash flow crisis would make them act very quickly.

So you'd move parish ?
Ooh, I bet that scares the bishops who put their position before the welfare of kids. Do they wake up sweating do you think ?

I'm not claiming you agree with me, my point is that you disagree with me so incompetently that it looks like a put up job.

oh dear Dominic.....same old, same old. You are just ranting and foaming at the gob yet again. This is on a par with the "anyone who voted for Tony Blair last time is a child murderer " thread or whatever histrionic shite that was. But it is also wildly offensive as well as totally ignorant. I speak as another regular church attender who, strangely perhaps in your view, has never molested children nor indeed known anyone else in the church to do so. Just get over yourself FGS.

Ruty I have no idea how many paedophiles are in the CoE.
I see paedophiles as random shit that happens for which blame can rarely be attached to a person or group.

My issue is with members of the CoE, from donors to bishops who when informed of these issues regard keeping in with their set as more important than children.

Why do you think that bishops who open admit to criminal offences in helping paedophiles don't get arrested ?
Do you honestly believe that is not political to avoid the wrath of their flocks ?

Lots of people on this thread have argued against you ver competantly. Just because you don't see it doesn't change the facts.

"They know that to be false, and come Sunday will put their hands in their pockets and fund the rape of children."

Actually people in my church will be putting their hands in their pockets to fund keeping the church and all it's community activities open and running........

"Eleusis, your fiver does help child abusers, the legal bills are a big issue these days.
Do they tell you where the money goes ?
Really ?
Have they ever mentioned it ?
Bet they haven't told you their insurers are giving them serious grief.
But you didn't ask did you ?"

I'm sure she doesn't need to ask - generally most churches have an AGM where the years financial outgoings and incomings are clearly laid out for all to see - and certainly most church treasurers are quite happy to share the information during the year if anyone wants to know.

I gave up on the CofE a while ago DC. I was so glad when Rowan Williams came around, he had a real chance to overhaul the bigotry, indolence and corruption in the Anglican church but he totally bodged it. he doesn't have the courage of his convictions.and there are so many idiots around him [usually admin men-wanabee priests cos they like the clothes/power] who force him to bodge it every time [eg the gay priest issue] the church will die out, quite possibly, and have to start again from ground zero, hopefully minus corruption. However, there are many amazing people in the church who work at grass roots level to transform people's lives, and i feel very protective towards them.

But it would be fair for practising church members to challenge the official church hierarchy and spokespeople on offering something as fatuous as 'the times' (in 1985-90) as an explanantio for not taking effective action, wouldn't it?

yes Blu.

How did I know this would be your thread!

These "grass roots" people you know...
Why don't they do anything about this stuff then ?
Got things more important to do, like ummm err fixing church roofs ? Lots of money and effort goes into that.
As Eleusis says, they keep themselves to themselves. Who cares about the kids ?
Any as she says, if there's abuse in your parish you can always find another one.

As for the gay priests issue, there is no neat solution. The church has such a mix of homophobes though to gay campaigners that there is no position that can achieve consensus.
That's why the Archbishop has given up and just does media PR stunts these days. He was a fool to get involved.

We are about to have our Annual Parish Meeting and our accounts suggest that most of our money that has not gone to Diocesan funds has been used to keep a roof on our church hall, which is used by a huge array of community groups including the elderly, young families and the disabled.
We're also supporting an orphanage in Malawi and have done for over thirty years.
Child protection is something we take very seriously in our parish and dh is on the Child Protection Committee.
Ruty, sadly I agree with you re where things are going generally in the church. I had high hopes of RW too
Still waiting for specific quotes from you DC to back your assertion that C of E members condone the rape of children?
Everyone I've seen posting on here feels that the C of E has handled this issue disgracefully.

Eleusis, you were doing so well in arguing right up until you wrote "If I thought there was child molestation going on in my parish church I would most certainly find a new one."
It sounds to me that you don't want to know if something bad happens in "your" church. Would you seriously not do anything about it, because if not then you would be just as bad as all the other people higher up that are covering for this nasty little person abusing the child/ren.
I hope this is not something I am making up, but haven't priests/bishops etc. taken a vow of silence just like doctors and psychiatrists? Their "community" does not allow them to go to the police with crucial information. Personally I really don't support this and I wish it could be changed.

Yes of course it would blu. I am appalled at Wilcox's response

I expressed myself very poorly, as usual, DC. What I meant was that it is not just the CofE Church turning a blind eye. Rape happens everywhere, all over the World, and everywhere there are people turning a blind eye to it. This is not exclusive to any one particular religion, race or even family.

Fanny, you're quite right: if you want to see the Church's books, they are open for all to see (although you have to know where to look!)

the grass roots people i was thinking of are not so much fixing church roofs as feeding and housing the homeless, working overseas to keep brazilian children off the streets [and away from rapists] keeping sex workers company on the streets so that they don't have to be abused by pimps, visiting the elderly and the sick when no one else does, giving people a chance when no one else will [ i won't bore you with the kind of things my dad did when i was a kid] that sort of thing. You are still assuming child rape occurs on a widespread level through out the Anglican church. As i said, i don't know if that is the case. But if the people i have described knew about a case near them, they would do all they could to stop it.

maismor said "I hope this is not something I am making up, but haven't priests/bishops etc. taken a vow of silence just like doctors and psychiatrists? "

the answer is no for the catholic churcha t least. This is even for the confessional. If you confess a serious crime in the confessional priests are obligated to report it to the police.

Only when things are confessed in 'confession' do priests have a dilemma in terms of informing the police if a crime is confessed. If someone confessed that they were a practising paedophile, then i would expect the police to be informed. There is no vow of silence elsewhere. So if a priest knew someone was abusing children within his parish they would have a duty obviously to get it stopped. The whole problem lies in the concept of 'Mercy' and 'Forgiveness' so that a paedophile may tell the priest he has stopped and he knows he has 'sinned' and asks for forgiveness. Some priests/bishops may fall for it. And that is inexcusable.