follow from working mums threads, well someone was bound to do it!

[lucyellensmum]

Xenia, i must be one of the lucky ones then because my DP doesnt find his DD hard work, any more than I do - he would love to be around more for her but someone has to shut the bank manager up. Yes it must have been a struggle to pay the hired help at such a young age - does that sound bitchy, then i guess it is - jealousy does that, but well, im Ms average with average house, average bills, average aspirations and i dont see anything wrong in that. I actually worked my arse off for my ordinariness and am proud of where i am. Penis envy maybe xenia - no, thats not nice LE behave - my god, id never be so rude to someone's face but this is a free forum. Our DD2 was unplanned and has turned our lives upside down, was just about to be reaping financial rewards for years of academic hard work so i wondered if i was going to feel resentful to my little one for changing my plans, i was this far from getting a horse, lifetime dream, but thats out of the window now for at least another five years i guess. But actually no, i just thank god for her every single day, every smile, every giggle and every cuddle - shes my little angel and i dont think i would have survived the past few years without her. So here we are, still stuck in our modest terrace in a crappy street in a rather trendy and fashionable seaside town and i am happier (and more knackered) than i have ever been. Xenia please do not take this as a personal attack on you, its not meant that way just putting my side of the coin across. I'm sure you realise you are quite lucky and i certainly recognise you may have had a pair of balls at one time but have worked them off to get where you are so much respect for that - but take it from me, your babies aren't babies for long - i worked when my dd1 was wee (16 yr now) and she was with my parents more than me, i regret it sooo much i can't tell you. I have another chance (thank god - again).

Anna - i know lots of people who work harder than investment bankers,(nurses, teachers, university lecturers (now there's a bunch who deserve their pay packets if ever there was one) or at least as hard with no where near the return, so its not just a matter of degree but maybe a matter of starting points. But its only money at the end of the day and people chose their careers for many different reasons. AGain, im just expressing my view point. And we are far from on the poverty line by the way so this bitter diatribe is not through jealousy just mindful that everyone has a different challenge.

I totally agree with Rutys posts. It would be so much easier if parents were more valued in the workplace. I also think you make a very good point about Sweden valuing parents and family time more with longer maternity and paternity leave etc. Its very different going back to work in Sweden to going back in the UK I think. I also agree with what you are saying about childcare to a large extent. I think its incredibly difficult to find good childcare in this country. We have been very luck with nurseries twice, but we also have the money to choose the best there is for our children. I remember looking at different childcare options when my DD was a baby and I still shudder at the thought of some of the nurseries and all the childminders I came across.

thanks FairyMum.

Thank you for clarifying the 'strangers' terminology. I think the reason this debate NEEDS to be high profile is that the bottom line, ruty, is that a lot of parents DON'T have any choice but to both work. I'm lucky too like you, I have a choice and I choose to work, and when my children were pre-school age I chose to work part time. This was for a whole range of reasons - I'd spent a long time training for my profession, and I didn't want to disadvantage myself by being out of the work place for years. I also have a firm belief that my husband is an equal partner in our relationship and we both wanted to be seen as equally involved both in and out of the home by our children. But the important factor here is CHOICE. Many parents DON'T have a choice and therefore need to work, and I don't think any comment which denigrates childcare systems is at all helpful.

i think it is perfectly fair to denigrate the childcare system tho. That isn't denigrating mothers. Our childcare system should be improved i think. Especially as when you don't have much money, your choice of nursery is limited, and therefore you may end up with one of poor quality. I do have a choice, but it comes at a price. My career and our income obviously suffer. But when we worked it out, my income would have just about covered the childcare and not much else, so it didn't work out financially for us anyway. So you could say i didn't have much of a choice after all. A good friend of mine [younger that me, in her mid twenties] works full time, and that only just about covers her dd's nursery fees, but she feels she has only just about got her foot on the ladder and has to work even though she doesn't get any salary out of it after nursery fees. So all of our choices are limited, unless we are rolling in cash.

Agree with Rutys post again. I just wish some of the articles thrashing childcare could talk more about the improvement needed in the childcare sector. The problem, I think, is not that nurseries are bad for children. The problem is that babies are seperated from their parents too young because of short maternity leave, working hours are so long many children get to spend little time with their children on a daily basis and many nurseries are not up to standard.

They could make childcare tax deductible so more people could afford nurseries. I think every penny you spend on childcare so that you can go to work should be treated just like any other business expense.

Absolutely Eleusis. I too am all for anything which will improve childcare systems further. And of course childcare expenses should be tax deductible! It's a necessary expense to enable you to work! But I still fail to see how it's helpful to denigrate the systems that many people have no choice but to work with. And to be honest, even if childcare were more affordable, nurseries were all high quality with amazing staff etc, they would still not be the child's immediate family, and would still be vulnerable to accusations of being 'strangers' by some people. That's what i don't find helpful. Even if we had perfect childcare systems, I honestly believe there are some parents who would choose not to work outside the home - not because they think childcare would be harming their child, but because THEY want to be at home not working. Which is absolutely fine, but please don't knock those parents who work as well as raise their children.

Oh eb, did you miss that bit further down? If you to work all day, then you don't have to raise your children.

If I could just have back the tax from the money I spend on childcare, my life would be so much easier...

hmmm. back to knocking each other again i see.
And yeah, lots of SAHM's just like not to have to work.
Agree with your post FairyMum.

i am sorry you feel so defensive about it you take one comment and take it out of all context and disregard all the other things i have said about respecting one's right to balance mother hood with a career Eleusis.

Oh i know eleusis... there i was for a moment thinking I work pretty damn hard as a comprehensive school teacher AND a mum of three. So it's a relief to know that actually i'm NOT raising my children at all!! Don't quite know what's going on there then! They must be bringing themselves up!Still, we're in good company, cos presumably all those working husbands of the SAHMs aren't raising their children either!

Oh lighten up. I was just joking. I think there is plenty of blame, envy, and spite to go around. I think SAHMs have reason to be jealous of WOHM at times, and I think WOHMs have reason to be jealous of SAHM at times. There are pros and cons and we all choose the course that works for us.

For example, I type on the West London Meet-up thread and they are always talking about their day time meet ups (I think I'm the only one who works full time) and I wish they's all shut up or go back to work cause I can't join them. On the other hand, I don't really want to give up work. That's my choice, but there are time when I'd like to hang out with the kids at Kew Gardens instead of go to work.

Hey, eb, it's okay. If you have a penis then you are suppose to go to work and have a misses to do the ironing... (but don't tell my DH)

Nope not jealous of you or your children.
Just objected to some of the claims really flippantly bandied around here by some about SAHM. I started out and still maintain life is hard enough for all of us without us criticizing each other.
and nobody ever said that ebeneezer so sorry you feel that way.

Oh how time flies, must go see my kids and greet the stranger who will be looking after them tonight...

Got to love sitter.co.uk. They should call them "strangers.co.uk".

Ok Eleusis - as long as you promise not to tell mine!

i apologize for using the word stranger again ok? Deeply. Sincerely. Honestly. Someone rap my knuckles hard please. [preferably not Ebeneezer cos it's going to hurt.]

Many a stranger even is better for a child than an abusive parent and sadly they abound. I don't think my children ever had a stranger. If you meet your nanny the day you're born and she starts when you're a week or two old I think that's as less a stranger in your life than it's possible to find, in our case. Sometimes nannies are better than stay at home mothers many of whom are not trained or suited to stay at home motherhood, who get frustrated, shout at children etc. Not all of course but trained nannies who love babies and make them their life's work help those families who can afford them whether the parents work or not.

i was not talking about nannies Xenia i was talking about large nurseries and yes there are probably abusive parents and even abusive nannies, childcarers, etc, on a spectrum.

am not saying all large nurseries are bad places or that many nannies/childcarers are abusive, but that people are not universally good in any area of life.

Ruty, it's okay. I wasn't trying to lay into you -- but rather taking that mick at myself.

I do find the word "strangers" a bit offensive. But, in your case no harm was intended so none taken.

However, I do want to point out that I don't think SAHMs have been harshly treated on this thread. There are plenty of nasty things said about WOHMs -- here and elsewhere.

thank Eleusis I know what you mean. It is a very difficult subject to talk about.

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