follow from working mums threads, well someone was bound to do it!

[lucyellensmum]

Xenia, i must be one of the lucky ones then because my DP doesnt find his DD hard work, any more than I do - he would love to be around more for her but someone has to shut the bank manager up. Yes it must have been a struggle to pay the hired help at such a young age - does that sound bitchy, then i guess it is - jealousy does that, but well, im Ms average with average house, average bills, average aspirations and i dont see anything wrong in that. I actually worked my arse off for my ordinariness and am proud of where i am. Penis envy maybe xenia - no, thats not nice LE behave - my god, id never be so rude to someone's face but this is a free forum. Our DD2 was unplanned and has turned our lives upside down, was just about to be reaping financial rewards for years of academic hard work so i wondered if i was going to feel resentful to my little one for changing my plans, i was this far from getting a horse, lifetime dream, but thats out of the window now for at least another five years i guess. But actually no, i just thank god for her every single day, every smile, every giggle and every cuddle - shes my little angel and i dont think i would have survived the past few years without her. So here we are, still stuck in our modest terrace in a crappy street in a rather trendy and fashionable seaside town and i am happier (and more knackered) than i have ever been. Xenia please do not take this as a personal attack on you, its not meant that way just putting my side of the coin across. I'm sure you realise you are quite lucky and i certainly recognise you may have had a pair of balls at one time but have worked them off to get where you are so much respect for that - but take it from me, your babies aren't babies for long - i worked when my dd1 was wee (16 yr now) and she was with my parents more than me, i regret it sooo much i can't tell you. I have another chance (thank god - again).

Anna - i know lots of people who work harder than investment bankers,(nurses, teachers, university lecturers (now there's a bunch who deserve their pay packets if ever there was one) or at least as hard with no where near the return, so its not just a matter of degree but maybe a matter of starting points. But its only money at the end of the day and people chose their careers for many different reasons. AGain, im just expressing my view point. And we are far from on the poverty line by the way so this bitter diatribe is not through jealousy just mindful that everyone has a different challenge.

P was that for me?
If so am just wondering as it seems most are saying that SAHM have only one 'job'

Sorry just didn't understand what you were asking.

being relatively new to MN, must agree that the venom from some posts is depressing. women, especially mums - working or sahm - get knocked so hard from every quarter (not as much as we beat ourselves up, though) that it's such a shame we attack each other.
why is it that if someone has taken a different choice to yours, so many women take this as a criticism of THEIR choice? some people hide under the anonmity of MN to offload their vitrolic bile. also, there's a lot of intellectutal posturing going on. "My post if cleverer/wittier/funnier/nastier than yours. nah! nah! nah!" meanwhile someone is being ripped to shreds. blimey, o'reilly, how can you have enough energy after tackling the never-ending battle of your own work/life balance to have a go at someone else? answers on a postcard please....

Having always been a WOHM I never really expereinced any critisism until I started frequenting parenting boards. I have only twice heard any negative comments - once from elderly lady next door and once from my mother (just last year!). But parenting fora do seem to a bit more gloves off. I don't think anyone means to be aggressive but in the course of the argument someone says something heated and it rankles and there is retaliation..... It's such a personal subject and of course guilt is the favourite maternal emotion....

singingmum, ive just done the whole HE thing (high ed?)and it was tough, dd1 about 10 but i had great parents who took most of the load, and DP as well. dd2 arrived as i was just finishing and it was a tough haul but im glad i did it. Of course, now im a SAHM and not using the qualifications but i'll bank them until i need them, also its a big finger up to those who thought i was just a dumb blonde. I never really understood that because my hair is more ofa light brown.

I have a degree and it doesn't bother me being a full time Mommy and housewife. I enjoy it. I know my MIL for instance thinks its a waste of my education. Getting an education made me haapy. I loved University. I still make sure I learn new things everyday. I wouldn't be happy doing anything else

I think singingmum's talking about home education.

oh sorry.

LIke Oh, I have never ever in 22 years from anyone been criticised to my face for working over the whole of those years. No one at work ever said not to. No relative did. No neighbour or friend. No other mother at school. There may have been the odd incident I don't remember but I certainly didn't find it. But the nice thing about the internet in a way is people can express a view anonymously.

On home educating mothers it's the extended equivalent of the being a full time mother part to age 5 - you are then their principal educator. It emphasises some of those bits of being home with a child under 5 I sometimes thing may be aren't so good - influence of one person rather than more and no example of to the children of mother leading companies, hospitals or the country but instead serving their needs. Clearly it's harder work than if you hire tutors of them just as those stay at home mothes who have cleaners and full time nannies are in a different position from the stay at home mothers doing everything group. Incidentally I was just sitting here reading the Telegraph article today on home education (only read if you're religious as it's about US home education and religion so not representative of UK home education - www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2007/04/07/smcreate07.xml )

A Guide to Modern Motherhood

SAHM
Hopes to God that putting her personal ambitions on the backburner will be validated by the rearing of happy, successful children

WOHM
Hopes to God she'll get away with a little personal ambition and still produce happy/successful children

WOHMs who want to be SAHMs = full of envy, SAHMs who want to be WOHMs = ditto

Whilst the part-time WOHMs think everyone else should just pull themselves together...

You missed out all the loads of stay at home fathers in that by the way which just illustrates the sexism of the UK I suppose.

FFS are we still going on about this.

Each person/family makes the right decision for them. If you are happy to be a SAHM - great for you, if you are happy to be a WOHM - again great for you.

If you are happy, then your children will be happy.

The ones I feel sorry for are those that are forced into doing something that they are not happy with, ie I would like to work part time but am unable to due to childcare costs, as I am sure there are parents who don;t want to work but have to to ensure that there is enough money to pay the bills.

Can we please stop having a go at each other over our choices, it is counter productive and gets everyones knickers in a twist!

perhaps we need something to twist our knickers, on account of us being too knackered to have them physically twisted, but then if we were to get of effing MN long enough we might just...............now where is that man who lives here with me

perhaps we need something to twist our knickers, on account of us being too knackered to have them physically twisted, but then if we were to get of effing MN long enough we might just...............now where is that man who lives here with me

She also forgot the ones whos personal ambition is to be a SAHM

Xena- i am interested in why you think that staying home with the kids is not a good role model.
I am university educvated and post grad qualified and have had a professinal role for 20yrs. I have managed and i have taught undergraduates.
I think staying at home for a while with my children is what i want to choose now.
I don't feel that i am teaching them not to expect the best from themsleves in any way- could you explain how I am doing this?

I feel it is the best for me and my kids and i may well change later when they are at school full tjme.
Surely your job is not the only thing that identifies you as a strong role model to children??
i can't really believe this to be the case.... it would seem a somewhat narrow minded way to exist in the world.
I think it is interesting that when you meet people they often ask what you do for a living. The shallow people are not interested if you are a SHAM, the more interesting and dynamic and less conventional people accpet that at some points in one's life different priorities take precedent.
I am still ME and i am still a strong and powerful woman whether or not I go out to work outside the house... and why would it be otherwise ?

I am sure you are you and I don't think stay at home mothers do massive damage just as I don't think the compromises most parents make when they both work do damage but if I'm putting the pro women working case on the question fo example as a feminist I think it's important now, such a very short time in historical terms since women got the vote, the right to own property and in 1970 the right to equal pay for equal work, that they do still where at all possible try to work and their man give up work if one of them needs to give up. We're still in this transitional period not long after women got legal rights and if they all flock home it's harder to ensure our daughters to on to lead nations, hedge funds and armies.

lucyellensmum I think my DH may just agree with you, I'm sure he's sick of me being onhere!

The whole point is no one gets an easier ride. The reason i objected to your post Ebeneezer was not because of your 'pride' in doing it all. It was your remark about SAHM being jealous of people like you. I admire women who go out to work and balance motherhood with a career. I also admire women who choose to step away from their careers to bring up their children themselves. I do not believe either option is easier. And i find it amazing that on these threads WOHM go on about SAHM being horrible to them and making them feel guilty, and SAHM bang on about WOHM making them out to be lazy and inferior, and no one gets anywhere and no one respects anyone who has chosen a different path to themselves. It is ridiculous. Every child is different and every child has different needs. We all do what we believe is best for our families. Can we please start respecting each others' choices because things out there are bloody hard enough for women and mothers as it is.

sorry i should clarify that there are some who get an easier ride, those who have enough money for it not to be a factor in the decision, but i think they are in a minority.

I don't get why some WOHM's say they do all that a SAHP does AND a full time job on top. Usually they are hiring someone else to do a fair amount of it, maybe 8 hrs, and they have alot less housework during that time if the children are not around. When I worked f/t, I didn't care full time and work full time, I worked while someone else (nursery and my mum) cared for DD.

This article is interesting this I think the bit at the bottom is interesting about labour women choosing nannies. I don't think nurseries are ideal. My eldest was in one 8-5 and I pulled her out as she hated it, it was very regimented and she was a toddler, not a baby. I fully support mothers and fathers doing what suits them, but I do think that a childminder is fairer to a baby than a nursery. Maybe the government should be looking at small home type daycare rather than these big comercial centres.

Paulaplumpbottom, I'm not sure if you see having 'a personal ambition' to be a SAHM as a good thing or a bad thing. I tend to think you are going for the 'not bright enough to have any other ambition or too lazy to work so have a kid angle' but perhaps I'm just being paranoid (SAHM having to justify myself ). I spent 10 years running a business with dh, working all hours and barely managing to keep the roof over our heads. Combine that with trying to meet the needs of 2 dcs, one of whom is severely autistic and the result doesn't do anyone any good. It was a rare event if we all managed to sit down together for a meal!
So yes, it was my personal ambition to be a SAHM and now that I am, I intend to make the most of it, even if I am jeopardising my financial future. We only manage at the moment because dh has two jobs. It's a joint decision for him to do that as we can both see how it has benefitted ds (especially) to have me at home. As someone else has said, children have different needs. Even though I can see everyday that I'm making the right decision it still irks me that I'm seen by some as a sponger or workshy layabout. Or possibly brain-dead!

Right, the reason I get het about this debate is the crap researh they always link to. 8 minutes of eye contact a day? Dear God, which nurseries did they visit?
I get very het up when people are using this junk research to argue against more investments in the nursery sector or just more help to working parents. Some people seem to think the government wanting policies to help working parents will force all SAHMS out to work.

You misread me. It was always my personal ambition. I myself am a SAHM. I meant that in a completely positive way.