follow from working mums threads, well someone was bound to do it!

[lucyellensmum]

Xenia, i must be one of the lucky ones then because my DP doesnt find his DD hard work, any more than I do - he would love to be around more for her but someone has to shut the bank manager up. Yes it must have been a struggle to pay the hired help at such a young age - does that sound bitchy, then i guess it is - jealousy does that, but well, im Ms average with average house, average bills, average aspirations and i dont see anything wrong in that. I actually worked my arse off for my ordinariness and am proud of where i am. Penis envy maybe xenia - no, thats not nice LE behave - my god, id never be so rude to someone's face but this is a free forum. Our DD2 was unplanned and has turned our lives upside down, was just about to be reaping financial rewards for years of academic hard work so i wondered if i was going to feel resentful to my little one for changing my plans, i was this far from getting a horse, lifetime dream, but thats out of the window now for at least another five years i guess. But actually no, i just thank god for her every single day, every smile, every giggle and every cuddle - shes my little angel and i dont think i would have survived the past few years without her. So here we are, still stuck in our modest terrace in a crappy street in a rather trendy and fashionable seaside town and i am happier (and more knackered) than i have ever been. Xenia please do not take this as a personal attack on you, its not meant that way just putting my side of the coin across. I'm sure you realise you are quite lucky and i certainly recognise you may have had a pair of balls at one time but have worked them off to get where you are so much respect for that - but take it from me, your babies aren't babies for long - i worked when my dd1 was wee (16 yr now) and she was with my parents more than me, i regret it sooo much i can't tell you. I have another chance (thank god - again).

Anna - i know lots of people who work harder than investment bankers,(nurses, teachers, university lecturers (now there's a bunch who deserve their pay packets if ever there was one) or at least as hard with no where near the return, so its not just a matter of degree but maybe a matter of starting points. But its only money at the end of the day and people chose their careers for many different reasons. AGain, im just expressing my view point. And we are far from on the poverty line by the way so this bitter diatribe is not through jealousy just mindful that everyone has a different challenge.

You have a hosekeeper? Does that mean there is no water shortage in Northern Ireland? I mean those things are banned down here.

Lol housekeeper. ( sticking my tounge out at you)

How are you?

Very well thanks, I can't complain and you? I haven't seen much of you lately my dear

Yeah, well you haven't been on the nanny threads... or on the WOHM vs SAHM hoo ha...

Are you coming back to London any time soon?

No plans at the moment, certainly not this month as it is hectic. Maybe next month. We'll have to get together again. Hows our lovely friend from Chicago?

You know, I haven't talked to her since she left. I really must send her an e-mail. We were supposed to meet for sushi, but she was sick.

Did you go to the Lincoln Dinner?

No. Too expensive. And haven't got the time for all that travel on a work night.

We have totally hijacked this thread now

You are right sorry guys

Paid work isn't the only way of finding fullfillment or confidence, though, when the kids are older. There are many ways to spend the time.

i can see why SAHM stay off these threads now. And i never said anyone was dumping their children with strangers - i said i reserve the right not to have to hand my child over to someone i don't know very well. and as for rearing your own children, what i meant was if a child is at full time nursery, 5 days a week, 8 or more hours a day, the parent is going to miss a lot of its upbringing, whether you like it or not. I have said countless times i respect a woman's choice to balance motherhood with work. But if you try to argue any point of view that is different to a full time WOHM you do seem to get pounced on. Keep the moral high ground ladies, i can do without it. I'll stay away now.

i just want to reiterate before it gets lost in all the defensiveness of us all that i do not think anyone of you are doing anything that is wrong for your children, and i respect your choices to do what you have to do, tackling the difficult job of being a parent and doing everything that entails. i just object to being told that my choice is a soft option or a kick in the teeth for working mothers or that i would be jealous of a working mother whose child turned out to be happy and well adjusted, all claims rather flippantly made on this thread.

Being flippant is one thing hardly anyone has been guilty of on this thread actually. My points have been totally serious. Aside from anything else, the reality for MOST parents of pre-school or older children is that they NEED to work - for one parent to stay at home full time is a luxury. jellybeans, I completely agree that work isn't everything - my words exactly on an earlier thread - I enjoy many other activities too, reading, walking, learning a foreign language etc But tbh there are extremely few parents of school age children who could a) afford and b) want, to not be working and to be filling up all day every day with other activities. I also think that it puts an unreasonable burden on the partner who is providing for one parent to have that lifestyle. Regarding the 'stranger' business, I seem to remember it was you, ruty, who used that terminology, which I think many parents find extremely offensive. Presumably at some point your children may go to playgroup, be looked after by a babysitter or go to school. You may discover then that you are not 'handing your child over to a stranger' but allowing them to function in the wider world beyond the care of one parent.

ruty - you may noy have been saying any of those things with an intention to hurt or critisise, but they have been said in the past by others, in the heat of the moment maybe. And it is very galling to be doing what you think is the best thing for you and your family and to be told you aren't rearing your own kids, you aren't a full-time mother and all those things.... all of which can seem very loaded even if they aren't meant to. Like my elderly neighbour who said when I told her of my 2nd pregnancy "another child for someone else to bring up then!". I could accept it a bit better as she was 50 years older than me with another generation's attitudes but it's harder when the people saying those things are the same/similar age as me. Personally I don't neccessarily choose to work - financially I have to - as it happens I enjoy it most of the time but even if I didn't it wouldn't make any difference. What really upsets me is doing what I have to do, feeling fed up with having to juggle everything in my life, feeling that I can never do anything 100%, being worn out with the stress and nightmare logistics of it all ....and then have people make comments like the ones I read all the time on threads like this.

Which is why I normally stay off these threads - for exactly the same reason SAHMs do.

It's actually quite rare you get a thread which develops into a majority kind of pro working parent ethos probably because working mothers are too busy to post.

I don't feel I missed out by missing those 8 hours a day with a child and if I'd stayed home I would have wanted to find someone else to help with that too. To me it's boring although I love children but I dont' find it interesting for long periods. I don't feel they're a stage show and if I miss the 1 hour a day they spent on the potty age 16 months I have really missed out. There are plenty of hours before and after work and weekends to see and be involved in what there is to see with small children. In fact thank God I was spared the tedium of domestic service and mindless childcare day in day out but obviously not everyone shares that view.

I think for me the luckiest thing I've had is lack of guilt.

And Om I think it is very difficult working full time with under 5s or being home with them, hbardest phase of anyone's life - you only have to look at my brother to see that. No stage of my life ever has been as hard as babies whether I had worked or not. But I do think those mothers who do keep up their work reap large rewards in all kinds of ways from that once that baby stage is over and as the children don't want you around so much and husbands' careers take off etc working mothers have the same career benefits and a kind of life role through work which some stay at home mothers lack. My own mother got rather redundant when we were teenagers and left home although people do including men who retire at 50 find things to fill the gap many have psychological problems with the lack of structure, purpose and routine which work, however much people knock it, does provide.

it is interesting how this debate is running on and on - i sah and as my youngest is 1 tommorrow - I am beginning to emerge from the fug of nappies etc. even thinking about how to bring in some income absolutely do not want to return to the 9-5 office routine though and want to think more creatively about next move. We have moved from the big smoke so a commute would be long and arduos, i cant drive so local jobs (in my field) would be tricky. Having kids has made me reassess every aspect of mylife and it is not going to be a matter of slotting back into my old work /life balance.

After university I drifted into my job - very little planning or burning ambition (does that make me a bad example to my children!!) - worked to pay for my social life and sometimes even paid my bills. studied for a masters as I was able to bid for funding to do it - and had lots of other interests outside work which were more important to me than work - even before children. So when I went on maternity leave it was without a strong intention of returning and as another child followed hot on heels of first it was impractical to do so. So shoot me! I work to live not live to work - if I need to work again I will. Still have all sorts of other non-financially rewarding interests. And as it seems likely we will all be working into our seventies - unable to afford to retire - there is plenty of time to embark on a whole new career. But you don't have to be a high acheiver to be a good feminist or even a good example - there are so many bullshit jobs in our service based economy that it is hard to get worked up about returning to one of them - even in the public sector I didn't really feel I was acheiving much - if I can find a job I can really care about (and it isn't being f*ed about with by new labour then bring it on - otherwise at least with child rearing you get a bit of job satisfaction sorry that was so long I bet you have all died of boredom - or the debate has moved on so much that this is completely irrelevant

No, it's not irrelevant, and it's interesting to hear your views. I think most of us are agreed that this isn't about 'living to work' - comparatively few people these days have that mindset. And I'm totally in agreement that there are thousands of interesting pursuits apart from paid employment. I don't think everyone has to be a 'high achiever ' either. I'm a teacher, I'm never going to earn a fortune, and I'm not interested in climbing the career ladder any further and going for a deputy headship. But it's a stimulating, worthwhile job and that counts for a lot. I would hate the thought of being trapped in some menial service industry job - that's why education and skilling yourself up is so important - it gives you more choices. Sounds like you've thought things through promater - and even thought you're not working at the moment due to particular constraints, you can establish yourself in a career later on.

That is the thing ebeneezer - career advancement often leads you to losing all contact with the job you actually enjoyed doing - my father changed career in his late 30's as he had become a lab manager and stopped actually being a chemist which he enjoyed - similarly in teaching - how much actual teaching dose a head teacher do?? In my opinion (fwiw) management requires very particular skill - and I have come across many managers without them!

Head teacher in a secondary school does hardly any teaching. It's totally removed from the job you were trained to do. These days, it's basically running a business. I'd never begrudge a Head teacher the money they earn - it's high pressure, long days and I know my head teacher rarely takes any holiday. But i think it's sad that it's impossible to earn a good salary without going up the ladder.

.which is why some schools certainly private schools have brought in Heads who aren't even teachers, from the business sector. I know my brother who is an NHS consultant complaints about low grade thick NHS managers but I bet although a big part of his job is running his unit, he is glad that a lot of what he does is continue to cure patients which as an NHS consultant you can but as you say in other areas of work rising up means you don't do the original job. That is not the case in the professions though if you look at architects, patent agents, accountants and even if one does manage the practice they usually just take that on for a year or two and continue practising too and then rotate it to another one.

'It's actually quite rare you get a thread which develops into a majority kind of pro working parent ethos probably because working mothers are too busy to post.'

then all you must have had too much time on your hands recently Xenia.

Ebeneezer, everyone sees things differently. I was not trying to make you feel guilty when i used the terminology 'strangers' , I was just trying to express the way i see nurseries. I realise now that it was not the right terminology to use, as we are all so defensive of our choices we leap on words as if they are a personal attack. [be nice if some of you realised the same] I realise nurseries are on the whole run by decent people with qualifications and experience. However, my own history leads me not to trust people I don't know that easily, and therefore i am not comfortable leaving my son in that environment at the moment. That is not to say anyone else's child is in a bad environment. The nursery ds and i walk past each day seems largely to be run by bored 17 year old girls, but they won't harm the children in anyway, of course. And i know some nurseries are much better than that. Look, every time i try to defend my position it seems to become an attack on your choices, and that is not the case. I don't think any of us should dictate anything to each other - and my real beef is with the way the system is run, not with WOHMs at all. If the workplace was run in a way that valued all of us as mothers [better childcare options, better maternity leave, more flexible working choices] things might be easier for us all.

BTW i appreciated and understood your post OrmIrian - sorry you've had to put up with things like that.