Charlie Gard 15

[cjt110]

This is a thread following the legal and ethical questions raised by the recent court case involving Charlie Gard.

Please could we refrain from insulting or otherwise "bashing" his parents. It isn't in the spirit of Mumsnet and will get the threads removed.

Please could we also remember that at the heart of this case is a terminally ill baby and his heartbroken parents. There are those participating in and watching this thread for whom these issues are painful. Please let's try and be mindful of them when we post. This isn't a place for name calling or trivialising the very real pain they feel. Many parents of severely disabled children are on here.

Lastly, here are some hopefully useful reference points of facts surrounding the case.

13 July GOSH position statement on latest hearing (includes update on Charlie's condition):
www.gosh.nhs.uk/file/23611/download?token=aTPZchww

7 July GOSH statement on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/news/latest-press-releases/latest-statement-charlie-gard

June 2017 Supreme Court decision:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6rPmvGlNhA&app=desktop

May 2017 Court of Appeal Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/410.html

April 2017 High Court Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2017/972.html

GOSH FAQ page on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/frequently-asked-questions-about-charlie-gard-court-case

Timeline so far

August 4, 2016 Charlie born 8lb 3oz to Connie Yates and Chris Gard.

October 2016 Tests reveal mitochondrial depletion syndrome.
Believed to be only 16th sufferer in the world of rare strain.

Autumn 2016 Miss Yates finds specialist in US testing nucleoside therapy, but it has never been tried on Charlie’s rare type.

January Gosh doctors say drug would be futile because of irreversible brain damage. Parents contact US doctor.

March Gosh asks High Court to let Charlie die. Mr Justice Francis gives parents a month to make case for treatment. Daily Mail readers help raise £197,000 in days to help fly Charlie to US.

April Doctors say he is likely to be in pain. Judge rules Gosh should let him die.

May Court of Appeal upholds ruling. Parents appeal to Supreme Court.

June Supreme Court rejects appeal. On June 27, European judges back decision. Gosh gives parents more time with Charlie. Pope Francis intervenes, followed by Donald Trump on July 3.

July 7 Seven scientists hand Gosh fresh evidence showing higher survival chances.

July 10 Mr Justice Francis gives parents 48 hours to produce new evidence in case.

July 13 US specialist Dr Michio Hirano invited to London by High Court

July 17 Dr Hirano examines Charlie.

July 21 Court told scan results ‘very sad’.

Today, 24 July, High Court due to rule on the case, ten days before Charlie’s birthday.

I think we need to wait for the statement from GOSH before anymore thoughts.

Wher me are these people getting advice from? Seriously no one can come out of this well with that circus.

I hope they can cherish what time left they have with their little boy I really do.

problm is no right to rply means everyone will believe the lies an carry on

theres no way to defend anything

Later we will get the GOSH position statement and then the full story of his condition will emerge. I hope there is also total clarity on the chances of success with this treatment at any point in time

The need to blame someone when something senseless happens is normal. My FIL did it when MIL died, he still (15 years later) blames the hospital when it was very clear that the reason she died was because she was too sick to have the operation she needed. If she had had it then she would have died on the operating table, but he cant accept that. He needs it to be someones fault. C&C are in the same position. They need to have someone to blame, to hate, to hold to account because otherwise they will have to accept that sometimes horrible things happen for no reason that anyone can see. Its hard to come to peace with that, and many people never can.

I am just not sure of the advisability of her saying what she said in court when it will clearly whip up further hatred of GOSH by the CA lot, and I agree that it does sound like they are planning to sue.

MissHaversham I agree. She has the right to say what she likes outside of court but not in it (and, grief notwithstanding, sued for it if it is slanderous). That was the one error the judge made, in my opinion.

Does anyone know if the Gard family will be able to leave the building privately or will they have to run the gantlet of 'supporters' out front?

There is more than one exit to the RCJ. They will be able to avoid them if they wish to.

The unnamed father of Baby James who spoke out about his beloved boy having the same condition knew there was no hope. He seemed much more at peace with himself, I wonder if the Hirano thing was a what caused all this fallout.
Hirano couldn't be bothered to even visit Charlie, and said himself treatment was 'futile' because of brain damage?
A call from The White House, and it was ''game on'' again?

Those parents have been misinformed by basically everyone but GOSH throughout their case.

First by Hirano, who couldn't even be bothered to visit Charlie and assess his suitability for treatment. C+C had the funds to pay him to do this if needed.

Secondly by Armstrong. Getting up there today and saying what she did was literally the worst thing she could have done. She's turned public opinion against them further, yet at the same time whipped up the mob more. And yet none of her legal counsel stopped her.

And thirdly, by the people around her. Nobody thought to keep this woman off social media, keep her safely behind her lawyers and spokesperson, and keep her grounded instead of her letting herself believe she's truly a leading expert? They've done her a massive disservice.

ShatnersWig just checking - have you lost a child in those circumstances

GOSH will be able to cope with that. They will have compassion for the position the parents are in and support them. There is no point discussing how helpful or otherwise that statement was, I think, because to do so is simply further inflaming the situation. It's over now, and it needs to be over, everywhere, so that people can just do the hardest job as compassionately as possible, despite the journey it took to get here.

The parents will have an incredibly difficult battle to find peace now, if they ever can. They have convinced themselves that GOSH missed the chance to save their son. They will be forever haunted by the 'what ifs'. It's miserable.

Grief does NOT excuse any words, any actions.

That inflammatory statement should have never have been allowed in a courtroom.

There are people on twitter condemning them for 'giving up' and giving 'consent to kill'

Oh dear, so they're blaming GOSH for their extremely poorly son. He wouldn't have lay there for that long if they'd accepted he wasn't going to get better in April, after the original judgement. They refused for him to have any further investigations.

I understand her sadness and feel sorrow for them all, but it'll just fuel the CA mob further.

problm is lapin nooon read the last poistion statement why would they bother this time

Secondly by Armstrong. Getting up there today and saying what she did was literally the worst thing she could have done. She's turned public opinion against them further, yet at the same time whipped up the mob more. And yet none of her legal counsel stopped her.

As a barrister, I have sympathy for Armstrong. Remember that as counsel, you act on client's instructions. I would have tried to dissuade her from it, but the fact is that if she has a legal right to do it, then you cannot actively prevent her.

I think you are over-estimating the effect of a legal team - often the most advocacy I have to do is with my own client. Sometimes it doesn't work.

Threats to the medics and judge now on FB.

"I am very sad that this dignified example of British justice at its best over the last few months, with judge after judge showing compassion and sensitivity, has been dragged down into a mawkish rabble-rousing call to arms. She is a grieving mother, and she should have been protected from herself."

THIS. Exactly PenguinDreamsOfDraco

Armstrong is laying it on very thick for future litigation in my opinion

Hmm. Yes.

My heart goes out to Connie and Chris. As a parent I cannot imagine the pain they are in. I may not have agreed with everything they have done but I also have never been in their situation. If someone told me that my son was dying and could potentially be saved I would fight tooth and nail to get my son that treatment no matter what the cost.

I've read all these threads but I think now the time has come to close them and let Charlie pass in peace away from the SM noise about him. There will be time to reflect and look for lessons learnt when emotions aren't so high.

Nellie A child, no. Family member (different illness, but similar sort), yes. What just happened should not have been permitted to take place in court. GOSH will have dealt with thousands of grieving parents over the years. This case has caused GOSH, their staff, other ill and terminal children and other parents, appalling and untold concern and upset and danger. That is unacceptable, grief or not.

I feel so very sorry for C&C.
I wish them peace.
There but for the grace of God goes any of us.

A legal team advises. They cannot control their client, the client does not have to listen. And a legal counsel and the client often do not agree.

I hope GOSH can make a statement as well. It needs to be made clear that there was very little hope for poor Charlie.

Even then, the mob will still be incensed. Facts go right over their head and they choose what to listen too. It's an echo chamber.

Connie & Chris are living evry parents worst nightmare, they decided to let Charlie go, I guess in their bubble they are always going to wonder the what ifs, they did thank Gosh, so that is something, i belive they should close the Ca page now because it is not going to help, but we must remember guys these parents have had their heart ripped in two, there is nothing worst than loosing a child.