Charlie Gard 12

[muckypup73]

This is a thread following the legal and ethical questions raised by the recent court case involving Charlie Gard.

Please could we refrain from insulting or otherwise "bashing" his parents. It isn't in the spirit of Mumsnet and will get the threads removed.

Please could we also remember that at the heart of this case is a terminally ill baby and his heartbroken parents. There are those participating in and watching this thread for whom these issues are painful. Please let's try and be mindful of them when we post. This isn't a place for name calling or trivialising the very real pain they feel. Many parents of severely disabled children are on here.

Lastly, here are some hopefully useful reference points of facts surrounding the case.

13 July GOSH position statement on latest hearing (includes update on Charlie's condition):
www.gosh.nhs.uk/file/23611/download?token=aTPZchww

7 July GOSH statement on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/news/latest-press-releases/latest-statement-charlie-gard

June 2017 Supreme Court decision:

May 2017 Court of Appeal Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/410.html

April 2017 High Court Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2017/972.html

GOSH FAQ page on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/frequently-asked-questions-about-charlie-gard-court-case

Wow, WeeWitch. Isn't prayer supposed to be comforting? That one would give you nightmares!

Weewitch..oh my goodness...that ''prayer'' group is rabid.
Take a look at the posts.
That Estopian man is there, whipping it all up...but this is obscene:

*Yeah . I think they are up to selling Charlie's organs off or using him for research .
Plus he's too expensive to keep alive .

That same thought has crossed my mind Karye*

Are these people actually deluded?

I'm sorry, but that prayer has really gotten to me. My Faith is very important to me and it has guided me and given me strength in times of terrible troubles. One of the most important things it teaches is to rest in God and trust him. It's taught me that there is a time to fight and a time to stop fighting.

How anyone can think that a just and merciful God would want Charlie to continue to exist as he is or Who can be pleased with the abuse and threats CA has heaped on the people involved (and each other) and a 'prayer' as nasty and threatening as that one is beyond me!

Christ taught us 'Suffer the little children to come unto Me, for such is the Kingdom of Heaven". It's time for Charlie to go Home.

Thus endeth the sermon for today. Sorry, all!

Across the pond..I go into our local churches for the sense of Peace, and the calmness that fills these lovely places ,and do write prayers, and light candles for Dear Departeds and no Christian I have ever met has had a violent ''prayer'' like that.

Re the prayer: (I'm a praying Christian) do these posters not realise that if it weren't for the docs at GOSH Charlie would have been dead a long time ago? There will be no murder, there will be no taking away of parents rights to fight for their son. What there will be is the removal of medical intervention (like it would have been in Jesus' time) and a very sick little boy with no quality of life and no chance at one will slip away because the only think keeping him alive is a machine (not god)

flushing - I’m pretty sure that wasn’t the series because it wasn’t about the superhospital (and I do recall watching a documentary about that), it seemed more about the care of sick children, from minor to critical, across Scotland. Possibly a BBC Scotland series.

ItsNachoCheese - I don’t have a link, and I wish I could find one.

But perhaps people in Scotland might recognise it.

I do alcibiades the TV show was just called 'Yorkhill Hospital', I remember the episode you are talking about. My DS was transferred there just after birth as he needed heart surgery, it took hours to prepare him and move him to the neonatal ambulance for transportation to Yorkhill (literally 20 mins away) and he wasn't ventilated at that point. So I agree that this 'just' talk is silly as it would be a monumental challenge in Charlie's case. CA just don't understand just how ill this little boy is.

Somebody somewhere near about thread 3 poste a link to the Pope's declared attitude towards keeping people on life support. I can't remember whether it was a link from anothher link, iyswim.

It was very sensible. Basically, he said that sometimes it is better to allow death to happen.

I never understood the Christian attitude to death anyway. When you die, you go to God, isn't that what all Christians want? That should be a good thing. (Disclosure: I was brought up Catholic.)

They have a thread where people are asking for prayer for help with problems.
One guy had lost his job and was being evicted so was offered a wonderful pyramid selling opportunity.

I've thought of a metaphor to explain why I don't think that DrH has ever been at odds with GOSH

Say a lady has a rare knee issue
A super duper knee specialist surgeon has a special implant, he believes that his implant can significantly help the lady's knee and agrees to operate
Meanwhile the anesthetist from the operating theatre comes to assess the patient, finds a load of respiratory and heart issues, says "not so sure this lady will do so well under anaesthetic, we'll have to do it under a local"

Relatives visit, Lady said "first doctor says it'll be wonderful but second doctor doesn't think I should have the same type of op doc no 1 said I should have" family go "why are the doctors saying different things? doc no 1 is the top knee specialist why aren't the hospital doctors listening to him?"

Op day and lady goes in to theatre, surgeon/specialist at leg end, anaesthetist at head end. Local anaesthetic starts, lady has a bad reaction to it, anaesthetist abandons the surgery even though superduper specialst is there ready to cure the knee

Specialist surgeon isn't wrong that he could cure the knee AND anaesthetist isn't wrong that surgery isn't safe for this lady

Family angry that hospital "won't" do the op that the specialist promised.

But nobody is "wrong" and docs aren't actually in disagreement

I've thought of a metaphor to explain why I don't think that DrH has ever been at odds with GOSH

Say a lady has a rare knee issue
A super duper knee specialist surgeon has a special implant, he believes that his implant can significantly help the lady's knee and agrees to operate
Meanwhile the anesthetist from the operating theatre comes to assess the patient, finds a load of respiratory and heart issues, says "not so sure this lady will do so well under anaesthetic, we'll have to do it under a local"

Relatives visit, Lady said "first doctor says it'll be wonderful but second doctor doesn't think I should have the same type of op doc no 1 said I should have" family go "why are the doctors saying different things? doc no 1 is the top knee specialist why aren't the hospital doctors listening to him?"

Op day and lady goes in to theatre, surgeon/specialist at leg end, anaesthetist at head end. Local anaesthetic starts, lady has a bad reaction to it, anaesthetist abandons the surgery even though superduper specialst is there ready to cure the knee

Specialist surgeon isn't wrong that he could cure the knee AND anaesthetist isn't wrong that surgery isn't safe for this lady

Family angry that hospital "won't" do the op that the specialist promised.

But nobody is "wrong" and docs aren't ac

I saw a documentary series recently called Children's Accident and Emergency . it was based in Scotland. The episode I saw included a baby transferred on life support between hospitals to try a new treatment - but I think the baby sadly showed no improvement despite the new treatment and life support was discontinued

Lunde Pick TV are showing that series just now - the next episodes are on Saturday 22nd July at 3pm and 3.30pm.

Really interesting to hear the comments of those of you with a strong Christian faith. I don't have any religious beliefs and sometimes find working with people who do a little tricky - if you have strong faith and belief that a miracle can happen it's so so hard to argue that science and knowledge and experience tell us that miracle is not possible, as the very nature of religion is to believe.

I was in a conference recently and a speaker was a hospital imam. He spoke about how he counselled Muslim patients in similar situations to Charlie. His belief was that keeping someone alive when the result of that was only suffering and no hope of benefit was haram (forbidden). I know other imams have different beliefs and many feel that the withdrawal of life support in any circumstance is not allowed, but the way this man explained things was very very good and I could see how he would assist people with a strong faith to deal with the feelings of being torn between what's allowable in their religion and what they can see is right for their loved one.

Jux your metaphor is wonderful, I completely get it and agree. I think it highlights what may be going on with the CA mentality a bit, in that there's no context at all. Just very black and white thinking.

Turning off life support = murder
Refusing treatment = being spiteful and evil
Contradicting circumstances = lies

It seems a lot of people on there have extreme emotions which overrule any logical thinking at all. A complete inability to think outside the box and consider that there may be multiple factors at play.

This along with a huge sense of entitlement which seems to be very strong in society now, plus fears of their own and loved ones deaths is creating this erratic thinking.

That prayer website is hilarious. It doesn't seem to occur to anyone that, left totally to God, Charlie would have died months ago.

Has DrH ever actually been at odds with GOSH? It looked to me that he had no idea in the first Hearing of CG's actual state. When he was told, he agreed with them. GOSH had already asked him to come and he'd not done so.

He wasn't interested. I reckon C&C just begged and begged and insisted that CG was OK, and so he agreed to tell the Court that there was a chance it would work, until of course he discovered the true state CG was in.

That was first Hearing.

He still wasn't interested. He didn't read the Ruling of the first Hearing, hadn't looked into it further etc etc etc. He was busy with his treatment trial and his own patients.

How C&C got him to agree to talk to the Court again, I have no idea. I suppose he was qutei excited that his stats from his trial showed the BBBCrossing possibility, and maybe he's a really kind man and sympathised with their desperation.

I can't really see anywhere where he has been t odds with GOSH. He has always bowed to their experience and their knowledge of their own patient.

Of course, it's possible that he's at odds with them now; how ironic that would be.

But I suspect he isn't.

Probably extreme support of parental rights as well and the fear of government organisations e.g. social services.
Someone was posting that parents own their children.

Has DrH ever actually been at odds with GOSH? It looked to me that he had no idea in the first Hearing of CG's actual state. When he was told, he agreed with them. GOSH had already asked him to come and he'd not done so.

I don't believe he has been, but with headlines like "Dr Hirano fails to convince GOSH doctors", the media sure are playing a great game of making it seem as though there's conflict.

FallenUnicorn, thanks, but I think the excellent metaphor is Tinsel's

I agree with your analysis of society, though, and I would add that many girls are brought up as princesses, and many boys as superheroes. If you have spent your life never hearing 'no ' then you are unlikely to be able to understand it when you eventually do hear it.

If C&C have built up the expectation of Charlie being a normal boy riding a bike they are not only going to have to mourn him as he is now but also how they expected him to be.
So very sad.

FallenUnicorn, thanks, but I think the excellent metaphor is Tinsel's

Oh no! You're right it's Tinsel's :) Not sure how that happened, I knew I was tired but I must actually be exhausted. Agree with both of your posts on here anyway, and all the other posters who are so intelligent and open. I'm learning so much.

Yes that's true about the princess and superhero society, people do not take well to hearing the word 'no'!

Quite, Maryz. He had little desire to come; maybe he's reacting to Trump, but it could be anything. I think he is sure enough of hisown comoetence that he will have few qualms about accepting the competence of others, like a GOSH paediatric neurologist, or whoever it was he said he wanted. He will defer to other specialists' opinions, and make his own decision accounting for it.

Likewise the Judge and the Guardian.
Likewise all the other professionals involved.

I trust the process. If Judge F comes to a decision at odds with my own current one, then I believe he will have good cause, and the cause/s will be set out clearly in the Ruling. (I do love reading those things. They are so clearly and carefully set out. I wish I could do that!)

Off to bed now, night night. Thank you all for illuminating and interesting discussion again. The case involves so much really important stuff.