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Charlie Gard 12

999 replies

muckypup73 · 19/07/2017 11:58

This is a thread following the legal and ethical questions raised by the recent court case involving Charlie Gard.

Please could we refrain from insulting or otherwise "bashing" his parents. It isn't in the spirit of Mumsnet and will get the threads removed.

Please could we also remember that at the heart of this case is a terminally ill baby and his heartbroken parents. There are those participating in and watching this thread for whom these issues are painful. Please let's try and be mindful of them when we post. This isn't a place for name calling or trivialising the very real pain they feel. Many parents of severely disabled children are on here.

Lastly, here are some hopefully useful reference points of facts surrounding the case.

13 July GOSH position statement on latest hearing (includes update on Charlie's condition):
www.gosh.nhs.uk/file/23611/download?token=aTPZchww

7 July GOSH statement on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/news/latest-press-releases/latest-statement-charlie-gard

June 2017 Supreme Court decision:

May 2017 Court of Appeal Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/410.html

April 2017 High Court Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2017/972.html

GOSH FAQ page on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/frequently-asked-questions-about-charlie-gard-court-case

OP posts:
TinselTwins · 20/07/2017 23:04

I see your point Tinsel but isn't it a bit different, although obviously not ideal, to continue treatment he has already been receiving to giving untested medication with potentially serious side effects.

GOSH are not opposed to the treatment meds, they were in support of it in January before CG started fitting I think

What they are opposed to I think is keeping him artificially ventilated and prolonging that existence, which in turn would be necessary in order to give the meds.

So they are right now doing exactly what they don't want to be doing

MissHavishamsleftdaffodil · 20/07/2017 23:05

As per their position statement. Sorry for typos, MN site does not work well on iPad.

MsHooliesCardigan · 20/07/2017 23:05

I was on a thread in site stuff earlier which was talking about disablism and someone mentioned the CG threads and how shockingly disablist they are. They may
have been talking about earlier threads but I absolutely don't agree that these these threads are disablist.
There was a PP who posted earlier about how she had worked with lots of people who were blind and deaf or had multiple and profound disabilities but still had a good quality of life. That echoes my experience of doing voluntary work with disabled people.
There is a massive difference between somebody who is disabled and someone who is terminally ill.
Someone who is disabled has absolutely the same rights as anybody else.
Somebody who is terminally ill has the right not to be kept artificially alive just to
spare somebody else's grief.
They are completely different scenarios. I have cared for a young woman with severe cerebral palsy who couldn't sit up or talk or eat unaided, who had to be bathed by 2 people and then put into a brace and then into a wheelchair and spoon fed. But she genuinely had a good life. She laughed a lot.
That is completely different to the life that Charlie has where his body is desperate to die but that is being stopped.

alcibiades · 20/07/2017 23:07

flushing - I think it was called “Children’s A&E”, but I watch so many documentaries that I can’t be sure about that. It was on one of the channels that show re-runs, so it wouldn’t have been a recent one. The two episodes I saw were about transferring babies/children within Scotland, and also from Belfast, to the PICUs in Glasgow and (I think) Edinburgh. One of the children shown was retrieved by Yorkhill from Belfast on an ECMO machine, which was very tricky, and could only be done via a Royal Navy (?) Wessex (?) helicopter because that was the largest helicopter available on short notice.

I’ve done a google search for that documentary series but I’m not having much luck identifying it for certain. But perhaps people in Scotland might recognise it. I think documentaries like that are worth watching, partly because they show the real-life situations many people, especially parents, can find themselves in, but also the extraordinary care taken by those involved with looking after very sick patients.

Holliewantstobehot · 20/07/2017 23:07

Just caught up. Going back to the viewing of the body and how we don't do that so much anymore. I didn't see my dad after he died, my mum said not too that it would be too upsetting and I should remember him as he was. I really regretted this after.
So when mum died I went up to the hospital and saw her. I gave her a kiss and held her hand and she looked so peaceful. I am always so glad I did that I think it really helped the grieving process because I could see what a release death had been for her. She truly looked 10 years younger.
I also insisted on my dcs attending both funerals even though they were little because I felt they too needed to say goodbye.
I think we all like to pretend death doesn't exist whereas years ago people were more accepting of it, saving for and planning their funeral for years.

TheWeeWitch · 20/07/2017 23:08

It's ok everyone. There is now a whole separate FB group dedicated to praying for a miracle for Charlie. www.facebook.com/groups/1873410566203799/

It's full of this kind of thing (long, sorry). I've reported this comment and a few others.

Lord, this is the big crusade, the battle for life, the life of Charlie Gard. Over seventy plus years ago, we fought a world war to prevent evil like this from happening. But now that evil is in the very hearts of one of the countries that fought to keep it out. It is in the hearts of the doctors, the nurses, the lawyers, the judges, the social workers. They tell lies, they do evil, they find excuses to commit murder. The judges want powerful evidence of this treatment in order to grant the boy life. The judge has NO RIGHT to make this kind of decree. He has NO RIGHT to determine life or death for this boy. He has NO RIGHT to play You. NONE WHATSOEVER!!!!!!! And the people who are speaking against this family, calling them selfish, they have NO RIGHT to call them selfish or anything else for fighting for life. They have NO RIGHT to advocate for death. They have NO RIGHT to advocate for murder. They have NO RIGHT to play You. They have NO RIGHT to commit murder. They are evildoers who need to repent and be saved and know the power of the One who gives Life, who considers LIFE SACRED in Your Name. To advocate for death is to advocate for satan and these people are in the hands of the devil, the evil one who has been a murderer from the beginning. So I call on You to end this reign of evil from the devil in the form of judicial murder, judicial fiat calling for the murder of a baby, a baby who has EVERY RIGHT TO LIVE, TO LIVE REGARDLESS OF WHATEVER CONDITION HE HAS OR DOESN'T HAVE!!!! WHAT RIGHT DOES THE JUDGE HAVE TO SAY IN YOUR SIGHT THAT THE BOY SHOULD NOT LIVE, THAT HIS MACHINE SHOULD BE UNPLUGGED, THAT THE FAMILY DOESN'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO THEIR KID BEING ALIVE!!!!! IMAGINE FOR A MINUTE, SAYING TO A COUPLE, "YOUR KID IS GOING TO DIE AND YOU DON'T HAVE A SAY IN THE MATTER," IMAGINE SAYING DIRECTLY TO A KID OR ANYONE, "YOU'RE GOING TO DIE AND YOU DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO CHALLENGE MY DECISION!!!" THAT IS WHAT THAT JUDGE, JUDGE NICOLAS IS SAYING!!!! LET'S FACE IT, HE'S NO JUDGE, HE'S A DEMON POSSESSED MADMAN HOPING TO COMMIT MURDER, AND THIS IS WRONG!!!!! I AM CALLING ON YOU TO RIP THIS CASE RIGHT NOW OUT OF HIS HANDS AND TELL HIM THAT HE HAS NO SAY IN THE MATTER AND THAT YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHOSE VOICE COUNTS IN THIS WHOLE THING!!!! HE HAS NO RIGHT TO KILL KIDS!!!!! NO ONE DOES!!!!! YOU HOLD THE POWER OF LIFE AND DEATH IN YOUR HANDS AND YOU SAY LIFE!!!!! THE THIEF COMES TO STEAL KILL AND DESTROY BUT YOU COME SO THAT WE MAY HAVE LIFE AND LIFE TO THE FULL!!!!! YOU COME SO THAT CHARLIE GARD AND HIS FAMILY MAY HAVE LIFE AND LIFE TO THE FULL!!!!! WHO IS NICOLAS OR ANY OF THESE PEOPLE WHO ADVOCATE FOR MURDER!!!! THEY ARE NOTHING IN YOUR EYES!!!! THEY ARE NOTHING BUT EMPTY VOICES, DUST, DUST THAT CAN BE BLOWN OUT OF YOUR HAND AT ANY TIME!!!!! THEY ARE NOTHING MORE THAN EMPTY LAB COATS, EMPTY PROMISES, EMPTY WORDS, THOSE PEOPLE ARE!!!!! THEY ARE NOTHING MORE THAN POWERLESS WARMONGERS IN YOUR EYES, WARMONGERS WHOSE REIGN OF TERROR HAS ENDED AND YOU HAVE THE FINAL SAY AND YOUR SAY IS LIFE AND LIFE TO THE FULL!!!!! LIFE IN AMERICA!!!!! LIFE AFTER HE GETS THIS TREATMENT AND EVEN BEFOREHAND!!!! LIFE!!!!! LIFE TO THE FULL!!!!! THANK YOU FOR DOING ALL OF THIS!!!! IN JESUS NAME, AMEN!!!!!

BoreOfWhabylon · 20/07/2017 23:08

Yes MissHoolie. Someone else made the point that ther is a di

sallysparrow157 · 20/07/2017 23:08

WeDoNotSow - that's one of the huge worries I would have about taking him home to die - in a hospital all your actions can be witnessed by many other people. I wouldn't want to compassionately extubate a child for palliative care without some pain relief running as I would want to be able to promise to that family that their child felt no pain or distress in their last moments. If it was just a nurse and doctor in Charlie's bedroom taking the ventilatory support away but leaving the pain relief running, the family could believe/accuse that it was the pain relief that caused him to pass away and that the clinical team killed their child who otherwise would have kept breathing and been fine

MirandaWest · 20/07/2017 23:11

I think if he does die before the ruling that GOSH would be blamed.

BoreOfWhabylon · 20/07/2017 23:11

oops - a difference between disability and illness.

smilingmind · 20/07/2017 23:11

That is such a lovely way to describe death and very comforting Tinsel.
I remember when my children were born having a feeling that I now knew more about the meaning of life, although I am not religious. So maybe death completes the circle.

TinselTwins · 20/07/2017 23:13

Oh god WeeWitch what scary ramblings!

flushingthetoiletwithlemonade · 20/07/2017 23:13

Was it this:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06nxrxm

ItsNachoCheese · 20/07/2017 23:13

alcibiades do you have a link for the picu transport programme? It sounds very interesting

TinselTwins · 20/07/2017 23:16

MsHooliesCardigan
There a lot of false comparisons flying around
Pics of disabled kids smiling on outtings with comments about how that could be Charlie in a few years. The baby is terminally ill and in multi-organ failure (apparently). That's not the same thing at all

Holliewantstobehot · 20/07/2017 23:18

I totally agree with you misshoolies. Both my parents were disabled and my Ds has autism. My mum was housebound and often bedbound for the last years of her life but still had a quality of life. There's a difference between not treating someone because they are or will be disabled and withdrawing treatment from someone because the treatment itself is causing pain whilst doing nothing more than delaying the inevitable.

GabsAlot · 20/07/2017 23:19

what a bunch of nutjobs anothr comparison to the war an evil

its disgusting

oakleaffy · 20/07/2017 23:21

An Italian has just posted a pic of Charlie before his illness manifested, with the words

" Let me tell you a huge secret. Only stupid people can't change their minds---Please let me go, Charlie

Well that has a double message :(

GabsAlot · 20/07/2017 23:21

just to clarify im not judging anyone for being religious

Venusflytwat · 20/07/2017 23:30

MsHoolie YES. Thank you.
That's what I've been struggling to articulate.

SocksBoatsAndQats · 20/07/2017 23:31

I'm a Christian, and I do believe there can be miracles in this world. One of those miracles is doctors and medicine, and people so creative and clever enough to come up with these things. However, we are all human and we haven't solved everything.

I don't agree with life at all costs. Sometimes, death is a healer and it's better that someone is at peace than in pain (not insinuating that CG is, I don't really know). I am privileged to have been at a few births and it's amazing to see.

oakleaffy · 20/07/2017 23:31

The WeeWitch..Good grief, what maniac wrote that ranting tirade?
If God /Jesus exists, surely He would want to cause no suffering to a child [or anyone else]
Sounds like a grade A nutjob
Palliative care, withdrawing life support is not 'murder'..I seriously question the sanity of these people with extreme beliefs.
Poor Judge.
Hope some misguided thug doesn't try to harm him if his Judgment advises palliative care.

smilingmind · 20/07/2017 23:36

Well apparently
Praise is their weapon of mass destruction
Guess they feel safe to say that as they call themselves Christians not Muslims.

AcrossthePond55 · 20/07/2017 23:37

OMG Wee Witch, that 'prayer'!!!

Perhaps they've forgotten the true words of Our Saviour; "Thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven".

Ellie56 · 20/07/2017 23:42

Perhaps they've forgotten the true words of Our Saviour; "Thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven"

Or, "Suffer little children to come unto me."

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