Charlie Gard 12

[muckypup73]

This is a thread following the legal and ethical questions raised by the recent court case involving Charlie Gard.

Please could we refrain from insulting or otherwise "bashing" his parents. It isn't in the spirit of Mumsnet and will get the threads removed.

Please could we also remember that at the heart of this case is a terminally ill baby and his heartbroken parents. There are those participating in and watching this thread for whom these issues are painful. Please let's try and be mindful of them when we post. This isn't a place for name calling or trivialising the very real pain they feel. Many parents of severely disabled children are on here.

Lastly, here are some hopefully useful reference points of facts surrounding the case.

13 July GOSH position statement on latest hearing (includes update on Charlie's condition):
www.gosh.nhs.uk/file/23611/download?token=aTPZchww

7 July GOSH statement on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/news/latest-press-releases/latest-statement-charlie-gard

June 2017 Supreme Court decision:

May 2017 Court of Appeal Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/410.html

April 2017 High Court Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2017/972.html

GOSH FAQ page on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/frequently-asked-questions-about-charlie-gard-court-case

They must have blocked you, muck?

Thats strange, via the link I can see it but not otherwise.

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings, they cant block me if they dont know about me lol

Thats so weird its showing now, I like to check the page to see if theres been any updates we have missed.

AcrossthePond55

But I expect that this attitude isn't unique to the US. I've read some similar opinions here on MN from (I assume) posters in the UK regarding benefits and social housing. Not so much the NHS, I think entitlement to that is pretty ingrained in the British psyche at this point. Although I have read a few grumbles about the fact (correct me if this is wrong) that the NHS is actually funded by a minority of citizens paying NI tax and that a majority of its users make no NI contributions.

Not for one moment do I think people like that are limited to the US, I suspect all (developed?) countries have them!

I don't know about the funding, perhaps someone else on here knows? I can't see it being quite true though given that all working people pay National Insurance if they earn over a certain amount. A lot of the users will have age related ailments though so perhaps that is what they are referring to, it does rather sound like something someone who is in favour of selling the NHS off might come out with though!

zeezeek

Thank you, it's a minor point (for me anyway although I know of others who would be devastated by it ) but it does smart a bit when ignorant people use it in that way.

Natasha/across, I know the majority of people don't break even over their life (paid in vs taken out) perhaps that is what they mean?

Just out of interest how do you know people's pay grade?
How do you NOT know your co-workers job titles?

Nobody at my work with a job title that has educational requirements has said anything about CG either way . plenty of people on lower pay grades also keeping diplomatically quiet

The only ones being loud about it are CA types. All have been on the lowest grade in the organisation. That's not a judgement it's an observation.

mucky that usually means youve been blocked if you cant see it

so tchnically hes in a vegtativ state yes?

whn i mntioned that to someone they sai i was sick

Maryz, even if he is, it does not mean jack shit, we have laws here in Britain and those laws are upheld, god help any American who would try to come in and meddle in our affairs.

It is judgemental, you are presenting it as these unqualified people having this foolish opinion. If you weren't being superior about it why would you need to mention their pay or the educational qualifications?

Just for information I have worked in places where people don't know what colleagues are paid, I did the payroll and could have caused riots if I'd wanted to. Job titles doesn't always equate to pay grade, e.g. in my last job I was earning £30k a year more than someone who was on the same "level" as me.

And grannytomine I think education is very relevant in all this given the gross missunderstanding of statistics and our domestic legal system. An apparent inability to look past headlines and viral social media posts to evaluate the quality of information you're basing your opinions on etc, that this whole thing has highlighted

People don't even know the difference between residence and citizenship! That's quite alarming don't you think?

Maybe a bit of respect for Dr Hirano's qualifications then. He seems well educated and yet people on here who have never even seen the child can judge the whole situation. He is obviously not as good because he had to actually see the child and his medical records.

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings

Natasha/across, I know the majority of people don't break even over their life (paid in vs taken out) perhaps that is what they mean?

Could be but it sounds like something someone who doesn't see the bigger picture (as I think you said across?) and the benefits of the NHS as well?

I know Maryz, I suppose they say the same or similar about birthed verses adopted children as well.

It is just such a nasty, low blow though.

Who on here has questioned DrH's qualifications?
His motivations are different as a researcher (posters who ARE also researchers have explained how/why)

It's CA who take the view that it's GOSH AGAINST Dr H and they're on opposing sides when that has never really been the case. What both are saying are not mutually exclusive views

I cannot see any relevance to mentioning paygrades in relation to CA views. Some very intelligent and well read people lack academic qualifications or work in low paid jobs through necessity.

All I've seen about dr hiranos qualifications is people complaining when he is called a neurosurgeon by the press - which he isn't.

Just out of interest how do you know people's pay grade

Well in the case of my co workers it is because they are employed using money from my research grants so of course I know their pay grade and their qualifications (which vary from BSc to secretarial qualifications) and their job description.

It is rare for people in a workplace not to know other people's pay grades, or at least where they are in the pecking order.

It's not being judgemental. No one has said that these people are not entitled to their views, but just an observation that in some of our experiences the people who support the CA stance are these people.

In my case, if I was going to make a point from a fairly small sample (15 people) I would say that people who have a non scientific role in my workplace are the ones who support the we must do everything despite there being a miniscule chance of helping position. I'm not going to extrapolate that to say that all scientists this this and all administrators think that. That would make me as ridiculous as the "as a parent" brigade.

Thanks for the kind words and flowers 🌺

The "I bet you dont have children" comments make me furious. No I don't have any but I have feelings and can imagine how I would feel if it were my neice or nephew. I have cried at the pictures of Charlie and could never imagine wanting a child of mine to suffer the way he is

I cannot see any relevance to mentioning paygrades in relation to CA views. Some very intelligent and well read people lack academic qualifications or work in low paid jobs through necessity

course they do.

Still, there are some grades that don't require qualifications, and every single person who has brought up the subject at my work falls into that category. Equally plenty of people who are on the lower grades have been avoiding the subject like the plague

But the ones who have brought it up have demonstrated an astounding lack of logic and understanding of the basics of the case.

Well why not just say that then? No need to mention grades at all.

Critical interpretation of scientific articles is part of (nearly?) every science degree. People who don't have this level and area of education haven't learnt that skill. That's not a value judgement.

grannytomine, its all in the court transcripts x all of it,even doctor Hirano saying treatment was futile.

...haven't necessarily learnt that skill

Well why not just say that then? No need to mention grades at all

grades indicate professional with educational requirements Vs not.
not in relation to salary

.