Apologising for the slave trade

[Pennies]

Today marks the 200th anniversary of the slave trade and there have been calls recently for there to be a formal apology from Tony Blair and / or the Queen.

Will it make any difference?

My personal opinion is that you can't apologise for someone else's actions - it would be a bit like me apologising for Tony Blair's sanctioning of the war in Iraq (and I have never voted for him so I haven't even approvied those actions vicariously IYSWIM). It would be an empty apology, wouldn't it?

I can't see that it would ever change anything, or am I missing something.

I don't think we can apologise enough for it. The reality of the tremendous suffering that black slaves endured at the hands of Europeans and white Americans didn't end when the slave trade ended. Unfortunately generations of black Americans and Africans continued to suffer from the repercussions.

Yes, African slave trade co-existed with the European trade in black slaves and pre-dated it but it was a very different phenomenon - although I'm not saying I approve of African slavery. African slaves lived as a member of the household of the family which owned them. They were not worked to death, they were not farmed out to mate with the studs of neighbouring farms so that the children produced could be sold at a profit. They were not totally de-humanised. I honestly don't see how you can compare the two forms of slavery - they're worlds apart.

Anyone who thinks we have nothing to apologise for might feel differently if they read some of the books written by ex-slaves. Their experiences are disgusting beyond belief. I don't see why we can't pay collective reparations of some kind to the countries who suffered most , ie Ghana.

got a bit carried away - sorry that was so long!

Don't aplogise, it was valid.

I'm not sure how you quantify financial reparations, tbh. I mean, the reality is the best thing we can do for Africa is open up the agricultural market isn't it? Surely that would be the best reparition?

PS Ruty et al, I rather like the Quaker outlook too . That's the definition of Christianity i can live with.

We do seem to be distorting issues on this thread!!

No, to apologise doesn't have an impact on the Roman's enslavement of large parts of the known world, or the Greeks, or the Nazi's, or Pol Pot, or Ireland, or Asia, or some nasty little tribe in an unregarded valley in Peru..(made that last one up to emphasise that) it is concerning our country's role in promoting the dislocation, deaths and various forms of violence on other peoples and benefitting from it.

And the fact that powerful people in Africa were selling them doesn't make our part any less.

The crucial bit for present day is that black people didn't enter our nation's consciousness as "equals" in the way our European 'friends' did. They were 'items' to be bought and sold. That is the basis of the legacy of slavery. And that is an extremely potent one.

Reparation? Tactically v. difficult, yes, for all of the reasons mentioned here. But this thread is concerning 'an apology' to be made. There are a number of avenues/forums that can be utilised. But for posters to say "nowt to do with me mate", or "lets focus on today" is an extreme form of avoidance. IMVHO.

Why do I think that the main result of trying to make reparations would be to make a lot of lawyers a lot richer?

wouldn't be the MAIN result, RB, but might be an unfortunate bi-product...still no reason to not do it.

Pann - I like your posts on this thread.

thank you Blu - take Effing ages to type...

I wasn't sure of the point of apologising really, not as if a few words can ever make up for so much but I just watched Songs of Praise and they ahd this chap who goes to Ghana and walks around in shackles, as an aplogy. Watching what it meant to those people- it really did seem to mean an awful lot.

I'm still not convinced about pure financial reparition- there's too many what if's- who would manage it, would it go to dodgy governments or the people? how much can it really change? I am convinced as I said about the changes to the agriculture policy- that would be worth far mroe in sustainable income to the countries that sufferd, or so I am led to believe.

But if me saying sorry will help in some way I would have it tattoed over my backside. My town is mentioned here of which I am hugely proud, the slave trade was stopped at our docks before abolition. But if there's any chance my genes were involved- im happy to say sorry

I agree PC about the enormity of it, and words perhaps cannot suffice. But..

in my work I see alot of people who have 'been offended against', and have offended. The over-riding strong theme that comes through, for me, is the common need of 'victims', that 1. it doesn't happen to anyone else, and the hurt stops here, and 2. for a person to say 'sorry' to them and mean it.

if we think back to when we have been 'offended against' in some way,or simply 'let down', then we probably can reflect on the postive impact a sincere apology can make. That's been my experience, as both "offender" AND offended against".

I do agree that a victim needs to hear an apology. What I am struggling with is identifying a person today who is a victim of the slave trade several hundred years ago.

I accept absolutely that what happened was abhorrent and that steps should be taken to ensure that it never happens again (although it is to this day, albeit not sanctioned by government). However, an apology by a modern prime minister to some nebulous black people won't really make much difference, will it?

Don't know Freckle. Would it? Probably have a mixed reaction to individuals. As I am not someone with that particular history, then Iam unable to be exact.

But...why not do it?? I have nooo doubt it would have an impact of types to millions of people, who would like to see it as a start point to measures to wipe out slavery as it exists today. Both actual 'ownership' of people aND economic slavery.

And also, it wasn't several hundreds of years ago, yes? It was still happening 150 years or so ago, albeit outlawed. We may well have recently deceased relatives, perhaps, going back only a few generations, who would be able to bear witness to it.

and is anyone else a bit freaked by the term 'gang master' used t odescribe someone who organises immigrants, both legal and illegal, to do durty/dangerous and unattractive jobs for a pittance, and rely on the 'gang master for their substandard accommodation??

I don't think you have to scratch too deeply to find evidence of legally-sanctioned 'slavery' of sorts in modern Britain.

legally sanctioned inequety, yes, but not slavery. And to call it such, risks minimising the real cost of real, actual slavery. Which is still happeneing in the UK, but is not legal.

The only outcome to an apology by this government will be a question of the "sins of the fathers" being meted on today's population by way of compensation being paid out of taxes (not to mention the disproportionate cost of the lawyers involved). But to whom will that compensation be paid? How will any one nation prove that they suffered as a result of the trade? Will the money paid for the slaves be offset?

It is a truly horrendous calculation - and brings the traffic in humans back to a financial level again.

I was talking to my BIL about this today. He is Indian (not of Indian descent - Indian) and he said that 50 years ago, many Indians would have wanted an apology from Britain for oppression during the years of British rule (I did not know that the British cut off the thumbs of Indian silk workers to destroy the silk industry so that British cotton could find a new market)

However, he thinks that life has moved on (and British rule only ended in India in the last century not 200 years ago) and now India just wants to do business with Britain. I thought it was pretty cool actually. No victimhood - just national pride.

I think the problem with the apology thing is that it creates "victims" and "oppressors" and the victims have to identify with each other and the oppressors have to identify with each other and never the twain shall meet.

I heard a black woman talking about her African ancestors on the radio today and she said she felt more shock at the African sale of slaves than the British trade in slaves because she felt the Africans were "her" people. I thought it was really sad that she wanted to identify herself more with people from a part of the world she has never lived in and who lived in a way she would never, ever experience and who lived centuries ago in a way that none of us can understand, than with her British neighbours who also watch Strictly Come Dancing and go to Tesco and work in education, or whatever.

I understand the attractiveness of an ancient culture that you might be able to claim as yours but if I were to apply the same standards it would mean I would feel more fellow feeling with an 18th century shepherd living in poverty on Salisbury Plain than with my Indian brother in law who I see every week and who I swap CDs with...and I don't.

I was using one example, MB, as evidence of a slippery slope, not the "comprehensive, argument-winning one.."...and I do belive I qualified it too.

I was very interested to read Maya Angelou's series of books. She went to live in Africa for a while. In the end she felt that she had to return to America since, for good and ill (and she is quite clear about the natue and intensity of the ill) she was a Black American, and not African.

I'm not one of those who use the Blairite argument that it's "just too hard". When British financial firms screwed huge numbers of people over endowment mortgages, no one would have accepted that as a reason not to pay up.
In that case many of those affected didn't get their money, but that did not excuse not trying.

But there are no British owned slaves alive. It's extremely improbable that any of their kids are alive.
We simply can't pay them back. It can't be done.

My home is over 200 years old, and I'd guess over 100 people have lived here. Various wrongs had no doubt been done to both them and their relations.
Why in god's name should I benefit from any claim for compensation for them ?

The inhabitants of Ghana happen to live in the place that much slave trading was done from. They are descended from some combination of people who helped the slave trade, others who migrated to Ghana and people who weren't affected in any way.
About the only thing there ain't many of in Ghana is descendants of slaves, because of course they were taken somewhere else. What there is not is any person who can say "I was enslaved as part of a British action"
All we have is people who live in roughly the same area.
Note that colonial powers drew borders very arbitrarily, so what we call "Ghana" is not a plausible boundary for the payment of compensation.

on reparation, it isn't so complicated to organise? The west and USA can organise countless World Cups for football, and cricket, Olympic Games, a new montary union for Europe etc etc...it won't be beyond the wit to get heads round this one, surely??

What evidence survives, and we rely on, can zero in on those places where people were stolen from.

Financing matters would be tricky, and perhaps fraught. But an apology???

As for an apology - who is going to apologise to me? Black men, whether descended from slaves or not, got the vote long before any women did. And married women were not allowed to own property of their own, became the chattels of their husbands on marriage, could be raped (and frequently beaten) with impunity. And just as black slaves had their African names taken away and were renamed by the slave owners, so women have historically had their own names taken away and are known by their husbands' names. Quite why this practice is now seen as romantic, I do not know.

The Govt could apologise and pay reparations for slavery but then I'd be demanding some of it back for women on behalf of men in acknowledgement of millennia of oppression. Honestly, where does this get us?

night, margo.

Can I recommend this book to anyone who is interested in salvery as it is in the world today?

Ca I recommend this book to anyone who is really interested in the fight against slavery today?

Disposable people: new slavery in the global economy by Kevin Bales, University of California Press, ISBN: 0-520-22463-9.

Horrible reading, but incredibly well written and it really illustrates the many forms slavery takes in our day. Really eye opening.

WTF???

ooops

Big build-up there PC!