Apologising for the slave trade

[Pennies]

Today marks the 200th anniversary of the slave trade and there have been calls recently for there to be a formal apology from Tony Blair and / or the Queen.

Will it make any difference?

My personal opinion is that you can't apologise for someone else's actions - it would be a bit like me apologising for Tony Blair's sanctioning of the war in Iraq (and I have never voted for him so I haven't even approvied those actions vicariously IYSWIM). It would be an empty apology, wouldn't it?

I can't see that it would ever change anything, or am I missing something.

[no Peachy delayed reaction to DC]

Many of the slaves were not stolen. They were sold by African rulers to European traders. The Africans as much as the Europeans saw them as marketable goods.

The Portuguese were the original traders and they were trading in this way with Africans for well over a hundred years exclusively until the British and the French, followed by other European nations, joined in in the 16th century. Prior to selling slaves to the Europeans, African rulers sold them to Arabs from the other side of the Sahara.

Although the Europeans originally took slaves on raids, but it soon became clear that both Africans and Europeans could benefit from a trade relationship. Many Africans became very wealthy on the back of the slave trade.

I'm not apologising or excusing what happened on either side, but it is probably a little simplistic to portray the Europeans as gun-wielding invaders when the Africans had a substantial role in what happened.

Programme on radio 4 now about the slave trade

someone else has pointed out the issues with identifying yourself with the past. I too think it is strange when people who are alive and kicking in the early 21st centuary, born in britain, spekaing english as their first langauge, shopping at my local paper shops, entitled as a citizen of england to exactly the same rights and duties that I am, working in the local service industry as I do,should firstly identify themselves as 'african' rather than British or English, and secondly that they would feel such a close identification with people of the same colour skin (well psosibly somewhere in the multiple shades of brown), who were born in africa, and lived in the 1800's or before!

Culutral heritage is the bollocks liberals talk to either 'make up' for the fact that they feel guilty for their coutnry pursuing its economic and political growth at the expense of others, or its a way to keep certain racial or cultural groups from intergrating and/or competing in the modern world. If you can convince a group of people their cultural heritage of basket weaving, fishing with spears, not having a TV and listening to weird music with their parents, is 'special' and a defining characteristic of them as a people you've effectivly barred them from entry into your world! You've also been extremly racist by assuming all people of a certian racial type, skin colour etc etc feel the same way.

I'm not sure thats right, sunnyjim. Imlive away from home now (from Somerset live in Wales) yet I identify astrongly with the cultural heritage of Somerset- unusually I know exactly what one ancestor was doing in the 1600's ( a double agent who influenced English history by contributing to the downfall of the Monmouth Rebellion) and I do identify myself strongly with all that I come from. The Welsh people here do, also. Its not about colour exactly- its abot recognising the fact that the past is part of you. And it is, it has influenced which genes survive, for example (eg family must be cunning and a trifle slimy, as the double agency led to nobody of my extremely common in our area family name dying in the assizes)

And I know that FIL, who was (rather famously on MN) abandoned as a toddler by his 'Mother' really feels that lack of identity.

But do most people have a sense of their cultural heritage?

Maybe because I'm a plastic paddy grown up in London, I don't really that much. It depends on what mood I'm in what I identify with.

And surely unless you are high aristocracy or living in such a stable village with parish records going back generations, you haven't got a clue what any ancestor further back than your great grandparents were doing?

Do most people live in very stable communities where their families have lived for generations and the records have survived? (I have no idea) I don't know whether you are normal or very unusual PeachyClair

Not entirely to the point, but if you're interested enough in the history of slavery to post on this thread, can I suggest that you use 'listen again' to listen to Jackie Kay's play 'The Lamplighter' (broadcast last night). It's part of the BBC Abolition season, and is about women and slavery. It is utterly utterly wonderful - profoundly moving, shocking, challenging.

You have if your family satyed in one place for over half a century minimum and are wellr edcorded as being what they were this is him- the Godfrey spy- was rewarded by the King with a farm for his double agency . And maybe my identity part is because I am still heavily involved with a lot of the Somerset stuff.

I can only speak for myself, but those people I know who have been denied this feel it.

Don't people just identify with their anscestors when they've got something to be proud of?

Of course, it depends on what makes you proud I suppose.

I'm of Australian descent which means in all probability I've got some criminal blood in me. It doesn't make me a criminal, nor do I identify with anyone else who is.

By the same token I can see how someone who survived the horrors of slavery will engender respect in their own descendents. But is that enough to define you? I'm not sure.

I think what Margoandjerry said re. British Colonial rule in India was spot on.

Or ashamed of perhaps?

Maybe, but also if you have something to be angry about- which is back to the slavery thing

Did holding onto anger ever do anyone any good?

Peachy - I read the bit about Bridgie too! We've always liked to wind the authorities up a bit . I saw 'we' when actually I'm not exactly a local....

speedymama - I would be perfectly happy to do anything that would make things better for the descendants of slaves and the countries affected by the slave trade. But what? If an apology would help, by whom and to whom? Economic reparations are neccessary... how do you calculate how much and to whom and by who should it be paid? I'm not trying to be obstructive, I genuinely want to know. Isn't there's a risk that it's just about trying to make people feel guilty? And what does that acheive? Consciousness of past events is one thing, guilt is quite another and not particularly constructive at the best of times. For a start abolishing modern slavery would seem hugely constructive.

Freckle - I don't think it is that anyone here has (or would) say they don't care. But although the thread title is specifically about apology, unless there is a suggestion about what is appropriate as a response, then the subtext of 'I didn't do it, how can I apologise' and 'it happned in different ways to many other groups across the globe and hisptory' is 'get over it' or 'why should we specifically care about slavery'. Which in the context of the fact that there IS a lasting legacy, both of wealth for this country and damage to balck people, isn't enough.

I know quite a bit about my personal ancestry, and as it is primarily coal miners on one side and a mix of staunch abolitionist methodists and romanies on the other, and no-one rich at all, my personal genes are probably reasonably clear of direct responsibility. But I benefit tremendously from the wealth this country has accumulated as a result of all sorts of iniquitous endeavours - slavery, exploitation of the working class in the industrial revolution, colonisation of here there and everywhere including Ireland...and it doesn't make me proud of the country that this is. Other things do make me proud, but not that. If we are a part of this country, don't we have to acknowledge that we owe (morally) the people who made it rich, and continue to acknowledge the damage done in the process...at least until it is repaired. Which it is most certainly not, yet.

Not all of this was specifically to Freckle.

I was taught about slavery in the mid 80's, and had always assumed that the extent of the slave trade was common knowledge.

And of course the Europeans were by no means the sole cuprits at the time - the Arab slave trade in East Africa was huge (this link is an example: www.allaboutzanzibar.com/indepth/history/id-01-01-34-slaves.htm)

Without in any way minimising the tragedy of the individuals who were slaves as a result of the British slavers, I cannot see the benefit of an apology - it somehow seems too self serving and meaningless. The difference between this and the Japanese example quoted earlier, is that there are likely to be people still living who were caught up - an apologiy is relevant to them and their families.

I did like the example of the Romans apologising - or perhaps the French for allowing the Normans to invade us? Or the Danes who allowed the Vikings to invade and enslave us?

If the church want to make 'reparation' for the way black slaves were treated 200 years ago, then surely do something that will help people today.

Use money and whatever political influence they can to stop the current atrocities happening in Zimbabwe, the Sudan, other African countries where innocent people (including many thousands of children) are suffering just as badly today.

I haven't heard Rowan Williams say anything at all about the appalling situation in Zimbabwe.

Blu, my comment about caring was in response to the implied suggestion that anyone who didn't automatically jump up and agree with the notion of an apology didn't care.

I think you can care deeply, but not necessarily agree that an apology is the way to express that.

I regard it as our duty to help Africans living in terrible conditions.
I think it is a disgrace to our country that many black children receive an inadequate education.
I have personally caused profound unhappiness to people I have caught carrying out racist acts.

Not because I feel any guilt over slavery, my ancestors had nothing to do with it.
Not because I feel I have benefited from the way slavery may have made Britain richer, but because I loathe racism and see strength as the ability to help others.

I do not feel that when I decide to help people, this should be based upon some dodgy moral calculus of whether they are "victims", or even "good" people.

I think we should assists Africans because they are in the shit, and we aren't.
That's all the analysis I need.
I don't care whose fault it is, any more than a child dying of infected water cares about slavery 200 years ago.
We can fix many of the problems in Africa, from laying water pipes to properly funding research into diseases like malaria, river fever etc.

We can certainly stop listening to Guardian readers, and fix the way black kids are "taught" in this country, not only is that humane, but actually will make this country richer and safer.

But not because they are black, not because they are related to slaves, but because we can. Charity is a function of the self, not the other. I help people because I am a good person, not because they are.

When I hear self-appointed black "leader" demanding reparations, I see a lobby group trying to jump the queue for handouts.

Maybe we should spend more on aid, definitely we could spend it more wisely, but that shold be on the basis of need. Some of the most most abused poeple on the planet have never had any interaction with Britain or black slavery, and I don't see why they should be unfairly pushed to the back of the queue because they don't happen to have a loud media-friendly lobby.

Not just Africa- slavery of the 2007 vairety is particularly prevalent in Thailand, Brazil, Mauritania, India, pakistan (Christians in the brick industry in Pakistan- particular relevance to Rowan Williams I'd have thought? ) as well as all the minor salve markets such as france, UK and basically everywhere.

If your neighbour had a domestic salve you wouldn't know, they'd not be let out or anything for anyone to know their existence

I typed this from my book- sory for the typing

'I was raised by my granmother in Mali and when I was still a little girl a woman my family knew came and asked her if she could take me to APris to care for her children. She told my grandmother that she would put me in school and I would learn french. But when Ic ame to Paris I was not in school, I had to work every day. In their house I cleaned the house, cooked my meals, cared for the children, and washed and fed the baby. every day i satrted work before 7am and finished about 11pm. I never had a day off. My istress did nothing- she slept late and then watched tv or went out.

One day i told her that I wanted to go to school. She replied that she had not brought me to france to go to school but to take care of her children. I was so tired and run down. I ahd problems with my teeth, sometimes the cheek would swell up and the pain would be terrible. Sometimes I ahd stomach aches but when I was ill I still had to work. Sometimes when I was in pain I would cry, but my mistress would shout at me.

I slept on the floor in ones of the childrens bedrooms: my food was their leftovers. I was not allowed to take food from the refrigerator like the children. If I took food she would beat me. She often beat me. She would slap me all the time. She beat me with the broom, with kitchen tools, or whipped me with electric cables. Sometimes I would bleed, i still ahve amrks on my body.

Once in 1992 I was late to get the children froms chool; my mistress and her husband were furious with me and threw me out on the street. I ahd nowhere to go. I didnt understand anything, and I wandered on the streets. After some time her husband found me and took me back to their home. There they stripped me naked, tied my hands behind my abck, and began to whip me with a wire attached to a broomstick. both of them were beating me at the same time. I was bledinga lot and screaming, but they continued to beat me. then they rubbed chilli pepper into my wounds and stuck it in my vagina. I lost consciousness.

Sometime later one of the children came and untied me. I lay on the floor where they ahd left me for several days. The pain was terrible but no-one treated my wounds. When I was able to stand I ahd to start work again, But after this I was always locked in the aptrment. they continued to beat me

(Seba was finally freed when a neighbour hearing the sounds of abuse managed to talk to her, saw her scars, called the Police who took her into care- medical evidence proved torture.'

Girls in tahiland are sold into sexual salvery by their famillies for the price of new TV's or rice cookers; then abandoned to die when they conttract aids.

Anyone who says slavery is a historical thing is completely wrong.
Please, if you haven't already signed the petiotion I lined to below.... ?

Eh, but DC, not ALL black people are Africans are they ? It is the classic Muslim/Pakistan/Arab thing. Not ALL Muslims are from Pakistan or Arab nations, etc.

Your post is a classic example of why history, politics, ethnicity, religious beliefs, geography, etc should be taught as a MINIMUM so that children learn not to confuse countries and religions and ethnicity and if all that fails they can go to uni. and do an international politics degree or read the Guardian which on most days is actually quite informative about international relations The Financial Times is excellent too, the international politics section is really very good

I went to an American International School in my youth, somewhere in Europe, and to my absolute horror, one of my favourite subjects at the time, world geography, was not taught. It is rarely taught in American schools. Am I surprised that G W Bush doesn't know the difference between his arse and most parts of the world that he is bombing ?

Peachy - I once saw two men and a Filipino woman standing on the tube platform opposite me in Central London. One of the men (I won't say which nationality they were although I could tell as I heard the language they were speaking) slapped the woman on the face right in front of everyone watching. It was obvious from her clothes and manner that she was a domestic servant or nanny. I was about to go over to the other platform and ask her if she was ok, but not only feared for my own safety as it would have been 2 big men against me, but they got on to the opposite train before I had time to act.

I think people should worry more about the people who are slaves now and not so much about people who used to be.

YellowRose, I think you'll find almost all schools in the States teach geography.

Thats sad Yellowrose

DC what is it with you and Guardian readers. What paper do you read?

I dont believe an apology is adequate or necessary. It would change NOTHING. What has gone before us is not our doing and not our responsibililty and no arguement can stand up to that fact. It is like asking our own children to apologise for the war in Iraq - a ridiculous suggestion.

SO Africians sold people into slavery! I don't understand why people keep going on about this. It is not disputed but it's like as if people think 'well if their own people were selling them how bad can we be?'

Africians can deal with the issue of having sold their people into slavery and the British can deal with their involvement in the slave trade. One does not cancel the other out!