African migrants - what is to be done?

[LadyinCement]

I see in the news that millions are trying to cross the Med to reach Europe. I visit Italy frequently to visit family and it is no exaggeration - there are huge groups of young men hanging about with no status and no purpose. They are lying about in parks/by the sea all day. At one major station I had to pass armed guards linking arms at the barriers as otherwise the men try to board the trains to ride round. They receive an amount of money every day and accommodation, but there is no hope of work - Italy has very high unemployment. Of course they want to reach Germany/Sweden/Britain and don't want to be in Italy at all.

What is the solution? Europe cannot possibly absorb vast numbers, especially lone young men.

I agree Mouse and this would have the benefit of helping women too, rather than predominantly men, and would be a long term solution. Migration of a small number (relative to the population of the country of origin) whilst possibly beneficial for those people, does nothing to address the greater problems driving the migration.

Projected population growth for Africa:

www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2016/jan/11/population-growth-in-africa-grasping-the-scale-of-the-challenge

The continent of Africa, however, is not following this pattern. Now home to 1.2 billion (up from just 477 million in 1980), Africa is projected by the United Nations Population Division to see a slight acceleration of annual population growth in the immediate future.

In the past year the population of the African continent grew by 30 million. By the year 2050, annual increases will exceed 42 million people per year and total population will have doubled to 2.4 billion, according to the UN. This comes to 3.5 million more people per month, or 80 additional people per minute. At that point, African population growth would be able to re-fill an empty London five times a year.

Doesn't matter, dress it up how you like. We are already very short of housing, people are complaining that they can't see their GP for weeks, schools are oversubscribed and you say take in more !,

OMG. Who the fuck let the Daily Mail lose on this website?!

Well, you know they are trawling Mumsnet for their cut & paste bullshit articles....

I think we have to help. Humans are humans. And migration benefits all our economies - here (UK) and in Africa.

Ifly Do you have no concerns about the current migration crisis? Are you not worried about the number of people drowning at sea trying to reach Europe? Do you think having armed troops guarding the border between Austria and Italy is nothing to worry about? Do you think we should not be concerned about the camp of 2500 migrants in Paris which jas just been dispersed and what is happening to these people?

blue Do you believe we should accept all migrants without limit?

Nearly all the migrants arriving in Italy are young men from West Africa, not refugees. They have the cash for a ticket on a smuggler boat (€1,500, give or take) so are not destitute.

I'm sure that's true.

But if your and your family live somewhere where life is tough - especially somewhere where your teenage son might be conscripted in to the army - surely you and your extended family might try to scrape together the money to get that teenager out of there? And send them somewhere where you hope and pray they'll have a better life?

I really don't think those of us who are posting facts are "Daily Mail" anti immigrant people. The article by the English judge I posted gives hard facts about the problems of Home Office Enforcement. The post someone else put about massive African increased birth rates is a fact, it is not invented nor is the fact most of them are economic migrants who are relatively rich - afforded the boat passage nor that the EU and charities are in effect bringing them over which encourages the £300m trade.

We do nto have the resources to house them. Yet life is very unfair. It's unfair my car is £1k and others have expensive cars or that some people have less money in the UK than I do. It is always unfair but that does not mean it is right for the people of the UK to let in without any limit economic migrants with no education we don't need who are mostly black Africans, many Muslim with particularly dreadful views of women and their place.

We have very high numbers of net immigration into the UK and we seem just to send a small percentage back who enter illegally and yet in cities with jobs there is a huge housing shortage and plenty of schools are very full in those places. The NHS is pretty stretched too.

We used to have conscription here in the 50s. I agree with Lucy's post.

And it doesn't benefit our economy if they are unskilled and need tax credits and have large families.

Well said, Lucy. I wonder if the people saying we should let them all in are living on the same planet!!

There was another thread on this that got deleted. I didn't see why it got deleted, but it seems ridiculous that this cannot be discussed without some people getting hysterical and yelling Daily Mail and accusations of being racist at posters.

The fact is that we a) don't have the room and resources to absorb millions of people and b) I for one don't want extremely large numbers of young men to arrive.

I posted on the other thread about what is happening in Italy - where I spend a lot of time with family who live there - large groups of men roaming round and who are not respectful to women. Would you go out in a town where 100 men are gathered in the park or by a lake? Or would you let your daughter walk home from a friend's? Ask yourself this before advocating allowing free entry of men from Africa.

I find the view that we shouldn't really discuss the migration crisis, or that if we do, we must be Daily Mail reading, uncaring, anti-immigrant types, quite hard to understand.

History has shown that trying to ignore difficult problems because addressing them would involve discussing issues like culture, cultural values and a never ends well. See the Rotherham grooming gang scandal (with these gangs now having been uncovered in numerous towns and cities). See also Islamist extremism, now a massive problem within areas of the UK. See also FGM, still happening to many girls in the UK. All not addressed because the resulting conversations, and actions would be difficult and challenging. All not addressed because it was thought that doing so would damage community cohesion. Completely counterproductive, and deeply, deeply morally wrong as it is children who have paid the price (grooming gangs and FGM) and all of us (Islamist extremism).

Just ignoring problems doesn't make them go away. It leaves them to get worse. We are heading towards a real crisis in Europe as regards immigration. Look at Sweden and parts of France. It is not, in my view, a sign of being a kind and caring person to refuse to acknowledge and address these issues. It is to no-one's benefit to let matters get worse. We have a responsibility to think about the future we are leaving for our children, and other inhabitants of our country. Sticking our heads in the sand, or berating others who try to discuss the issue might be easier in the short term, but it is no solution.

would involve discussing issues like culture, cultural values and a never ends well

should read

would involve discussing issues like culture, cultural values and religion never ends well

The only way to solve the immigration crisis is to wake up and let people move where they want. Have no borders.

Sure there will be immigration, but the immigrants of today will be the future generations of this country. Let's help them to help us become a better society. Immigration is always a positive thing.

The people coming here can get work or benefits and send them to their families abroad to help their situation there.

Also, the problems faced regarding gangs, extremism and FGM are rare and there are laws in place to deal with these. These problems are red herrings.

If I had a teenage son, and a teenage daughter, and only enough money to pay for the journey of one of them I would probably send my son. Why?
Because there is a risk that my young son will get repeatedly raped and/or sold into sex slavery. There is also a good chance that he won't.
The risk of my daughter getting repeatedly raped and/or sold into sex slavery is much, much, higher. It is almost certain that she would get raped at least once on her journey, depending on where she is travelling from.

Making judgements about the incredibly difficult decisions some families have to make from the comfort of our own living rooms is easy to do, but maybe we shouldn't jump to simplistic conclusions too quickly.

My own grandfather was an asylum seeker - he and his father travelled together, with his sister and mother due to follow them as soon as they could. His sister and mother never made it, and I am sure his father lived with the guilt for the rest of his life. I don't know exactly why the family made those particular travel arrangements, but it was during a confusing, chaotic time, with loads of people trying to leave, and I don't believe it was as simple as my great grandfather being misogenistic.

I don't know what the answer is, but I know it isn't this:
inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/crowdfunded-far-right-vessel-sets-sail-mediterranean-target-refugee-rescue-boats/
Sickening.

The reason people can't get an appointment at the GP and that there is a housing and infrastructure problem is because of inadequate spending/austerity (and in the case of the NHS and aging population with multiple complex health needs) not immigration.
Why on earth do you think the whole of Africa is suddenly going to decamp here? Of course they aren't, any more than we would up sticks to the USA.
There is a difference between economic migration and people fleeing an awful life (like a lot of eritrean/Somalian refugees). Yet on threads like this they get conflated and people say things like "black Africans, mostly muslims". That's racism. There is no need to talk about colour/religion
As for misogynist views, we have plenty of that home grown in the UK that we don't deal with. It's totally hypocritical to act as if it's an issue we are importing with "immigrants".

I wonder how we would become a "better society" with millions more occupants?

This thread is extraordinary- and not in a good way. There are 2 issues, the immediate problem of how to manage the influx of desperate people who need help immediately but then also how to tackle the longer term issues because I don't think anyone would agree that mass immigration is a solution. Surely the longer term solution is to build wealth and stability in the countries from which people are fleeing? This has to be done through trade negotiations, economic support etc while also taking into account corruption, civil war and other issues.

I do think we should work as hard as possible to improve things in some of these countries. Improving the choices available to women would be particularly effective, imo, as it would slow down population growth and improve the living conditions of the children the women do have. It is a tricky issue to address though, due to the historical context and suspicions over the motives of those prooting contraception etc.
Problem is, many of the public figures and media outlets who froth the most about migrants are also the ones who object so strongly to foreign aid.
Climate change is only going to exacerbate the crisis, so we need to get serious about this as well.

I really should keep away but I am horrified at the racism expressed by some.black Africans

Italy has huge unemployment and cannot cope with the influx of economic migrants not refugees. The answer cannot be to let them in. They are not finding work. They are begging on the streets.