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African migrants - what is to be done?

168 replies

LadyinCement · 06/07/2017 09:16

I see in the news that millions are trying to cross the Med to reach Europe. I visit Italy frequently to visit family and it is no exaggeration - there are huge groups of young men hanging about with no status and no purpose. They are lying about in parks/by the sea all day. At one major station I had to pass armed guards linking arms at the barriers as otherwise the men try to board the trains to ride round. They receive an amount of money every day and accommodation, but there is no hope of work - Italy has very high unemployment. Of course they want to reach Germany/Sweden/Britain and don't want to be in Italy at all.

What is the solution? Europe cannot possibly absorb vast numbers, especially lone young men.

OP posts:
MorrisZapp · 06/07/2017 11:54

What happens to women and children when the army come knocking but the men have left?

fatdogs · 06/07/2017 12:01

Probably get raped and murdered. But that's alright as their men are finding work and will send for them when they have saved enoughHmm

The reality of a lot of African countries which are in civil war conflict is so completely chaotic. Villages are raided and people keep moving over a large distance. I think when a lot of these men flee they know the reality is that it would be very unlikely for them to see those left behind again.

HoneyIshrunktheBiscuit · 06/07/2017 12:02

morris it entirely depends on the country. But often in places of political unrest the men are in more immediate dangers than women. Eritrean boys can claim asylum in the uk very easily - Eritrean girls not so much.

SpaghettiAndMeatballs · 06/07/2017 12:08

Eritrean boys can claim asylum in the uk very easily - Eritrean girls not so much

Interesting what we consider immediate danger isn't it.

FGMEritrea

fatdogs · 06/07/2017 12:12

@honeyishrunkthebiscuit how does that work then? Let's say an Eritrean man gets asylum here. Can he then send for his sister? But should his sister be allowed to get asylum if she would be rejected should she apply on her own merits as she would have been deemed to be in Insufficient danger?
If she does get asylum, it would be unfair to girls who are condemned to live in a conflict area solely because they are not lucky enough to have brothers to have cleared the path for them and they are not the direct targets of the conflict.
We either accept that conditions are so bad that everyone from there should be given asylum or if conditions are only bad for a certain group then that group may be given asylum but no to allowing their family to join as the family can remain in relative safety.

HoneyIshrunktheBiscuit · 06/07/2017 12:12

spaghetti I'm not saying I agree with the home offices stance on the issue. Unfourtunately it's the reality I witness working with unaccompanied Jed asylum seeking children.

HoneyIshrunktheBiscuit · 06/07/2017 12:15

fatdogs girls in Eritrea don't tend to be conscripted. 17/18 year old boys from Eritrea will find asylum claims in the uk take roughly around 3 months. Girls can be waiting years.

Again not saying I agree with this. Simply saying this is what I have witnessed working with these kids.

YoungGirlGrowingOld · 06/07/2017 12:32

Why would I call you a cow Nellie? I think you are the one who is way too invested here. Unless you think I am cross because I haven't splattered my post with 😂 emoticons? That's not "cross". That's having a vocabulary and a mental age of over 14.

Rhubarbginisnotasin · 06/07/2017 17:01

why do they have corrupt governments? because the west went in, took over, took everything and created systems that benefitted the west

who do you think benefits the most from these corrupt governments?

They have corrupt governments because the politicians are greedy swines who rob the people they're supposed to serve.

And who benefits from it? Well that would be the self servicing government officials, and their families, who are nothing more than highway robbers.

Welldoneme · 06/07/2017 18:20

This reply has been deleted

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Lucysky2017 · 07/07/2017 21:09

We all know the law. The first country of entry into the UK ( just about never the UK) is where they are to be processed and sent back to. That makes it Italy's problem and Greece's problem.

We cannot take them all even if they meet the requirements for refugee rather than economic migrant status.

The UK is giving a lot more money for help in Africa than some other EU states as that can be the best place to help them.

Lucysky2017 · 07/07/2017 21:14

This was in yesterday's Times which had some useful detail:

"Lack of enforcement is frustrating, says former immigration judge

James Hanratty describes deep-rooted flaws in the Home Office’s approach in an extract from his book

It is difficult, in many cases, to enforce immigration decisions by removing the appellant. Many deliberately destroy their travel documents and invent another country of nationality. Home Office officials trawl their records and use the European database to try to ascertain the appellant’s nationality while the appellant is kept in custody and warned he will stay there unless he co-operates. Eventually, however, he is granted bail as removal is “not imminent” and, of course, he absconds. Removal is not easy.

There are no clear statistics to show how many illegal immigrants are actually removed or deported against their will. It is assumed that the figure is about 4,000. Not so long ago the Home Office had a fast-track procedure intended for manifestly unworthy appeals where the appellant would be placed in custody. The appeal would be heard in court and if the appeal was dismissed, as it usually was, there was an expedited appeal system from the immigration judge. If that also failed, the appellant would be put on a plane.

The fast-track procedure was designed for cases that were easily discredited. But the Home Office then became, as it were, greedy and started slotting Afghan and Iraqi appeals into this procedure. The Court of Appeal found in 2015 that the procedure was unlawful, as too little time was given for an appellant to assemble the case. If the Home Office had stuck to the original procedure with its successful removal rate, it might not have been banned.

This lack of enforcement by the Home Office was very frustrating. It called into question the purpose and existence of the [immigration] tribunal itself, except for one point. I recognised that if a lying appellant lost, the Home Office was unlikely to do anything, often for reasons of incompetence or sometimes because the country of nationality could not be established. But the tribunal was essential in protecting the rights of the tortured, frightened, and genuine. Good could come of it.

It was also frustrating when we informed the Home Office of apparent rackets and it apparently did nothing. At one time we noticed a tranche of appellants from Sri Lanka who had all received visas to the UK to visit their families or to study from the High Commission in Colombo, by using agents. The applications were made on paper without any interview and a visa was granted.

As soon as they arrived they claimed asylum. There had never been any family or college. I emailed the head of the UK Border Agency (UKBA) that either there was incompetence or criminal activity in Colombo and recommended an inspection. I received a poorly drafted reply repeating the mantra that there were robust procedures in place. There was no mention of Sri Lanka.

I wrote again, demanding a reply from the man himself . . . I received another email, rather better drafted, but still unlikely to have even been seen by the head of UKBA. There was still no mention of Colombo or Sri Lanka or an inspection. I gave up. The apparent lack of interest in enforcement by some officials was obvious.

I recognise the UK Border Agency is overwhelmed and morale is low, but that cannot excuse incompetence. For example, in 2006 some junior Home Office official opened a rusty lock in some Home Office warehouse to find 450,000 files. They went back ten years and consisted of applications that had found themselves in the “too difficult” in-tray at the Home Office. They called them “legacy cases”, as though it was something to be welcomed. Officials then began to wade through these files. Most people had either disappeared or were settled here.

Some ask why there should be any immigration control at all. As a broad principle it must be recognised that this country needs immigrants to bring their skills and diversity to our life . . . Immigration can be the lifeblood of a state, but we must also have immigration control. The government recognises that at least 300,000 more enter the UK each year than leave. [The figure was 248,000 in 2016.]
James Hanratty: “Judges must be fair and compassionate, but not stupid and ignorant on the bench”
James Hanratty: “Judges must be fair and compassionate, but not stupid and ignorant on the bench”

The Home Office must control our borders. Some say that it does not adequately do so, because our borders are too porous. The Home Office does seem, at times, slow to react to obvious abuses. I know that, in some cases, migrants will go to Ireland and then smuggle themselves into Northern Ireland and fly from Belfast to Heathrow on an internal flight within the UK, where there are no proper checks at Heathrow on arrival. An alternative would be to go to southern Ireland, then take some form of ferry to an obscure port on the west coast of Scotland, arriving at ten o’clock at night when there are no police, immigration officers or customs officers. These people would then get a train down to London and disappear. I pointed this out to Home Office officials, but my letter was not even acknowledged.

We must show compassion to those who are desperate and genuine. But to declare an open-door policy would invite economic migrants with no genuine refugee case at all.

There are good and bad practices in immigration control. Judges must be fair and compassionate, but not stupid and ignorant on the bench. Judges are not in the business of “kicking them all out”, but applying the law fairly and accurately. But lack of enforcement does undermine both the courts and the administration of justice generally."

Extract from The Making of an Immigration Judge by James Hanratty, Quartet, £20"

ReleaseTheBats · 07/07/2017 22:38

I'm not really sure how reliable Westmonster is but the following article is relevant re migrants in Paris and travelling from Italy to Paris. I think the idea that migrants will stay in the European country they arrive in until or unless they get citizenship is probably a bit unrealistic.

www.westmonster.com/migrant-chaos-in-paris-as-thousands-arrive-from-italy/

megletthesecond · 07/07/2017 22:44

We can stop exploiting Africa for a start. They have resources but little control of their wealth.

ReleaseTheBats · 07/07/2017 22:45

Thirdly only the strongest and the fittest tend to survive the journey which 9 times out of 10 is the young males

Do you have any evidence for this statement? Most of the migrants arriving from Africa by boat are now picked up a few miles off the Libyan cost by NGOs and charities. Are you suggesting there are huge numbers of women perishing on the journey? If so, how do you know this?

ReleaseTheBats · 07/07/2017 22:47

Similarly to many people in the UK megle

twelly · 07/07/2017 22:50

I think that people are citizens of the world and therefore Europe should allow people to move, but if Europe or the uk accept immigrants they need to abide by the rules of the country , the philosophy of the people and our customs in terms of dress. We cannot have areas where a counter culture operates

ReleaseTheBats · 07/07/2017 23:04

Spectator article on collusion between NGOs and charities and people smugglers operating out of Libya:

A sane person would assume that the 181,436 migrants (a new record) who made it by sea to Italy last year had done so under their own steam in flimsy fishing boats and dinghies at least some of the way across the Mediterranean. This, after all, is the message aid agencies and governments put out.

In fact, every one of those 181,436 was picked up by EU and non-government aid-agency vessels off the Libyan coast just outside the 12-mile territorial limit, then ferried across to Europe. The people-smuggler boats — more often than not these days dangerously unseaworthy rubber dinghies — chug out towards the 12-mile limit, send out a distress signal, and Bob’s your uncle.

Nearly all the migrants arriving in Italy are young men from West Africa, not refugees. They have the cash for a ticket on a smuggler boat (€1,500, give or take) so are not destitute. That’s getting on for £300 million in ticket sales last year. West African migrants are big business.

ReleaseTheBats · 07/07/2017 23:06

Its annual report says the smugglers now hardly bother to telephone the Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre in Rome to be picked up, preferring to call aid-agency vessels directly. The reason is obvious: these people will not arrest them or confiscate their vessels.

Since June 2016, many boats have been rescued near the Libyan coast by aid-agency vessels ‘without any prior distress call’, suggesting the rendezvous has been pre-arranged.

www.spectator.co.uk/2017/04/are-we-helping-desperate-migrants-or-just-people-smugglers/

cuirderussie · 07/07/2017 23:17

Meglet it is currently the Chinese who are exploiting and asset-stripping Africa, you might want to bring yourself up to speed on that.

QuentinSummers · 07/07/2017 23:18

This thread is horrible Sad
Have you looked into what life is like in Eritrea? Do you really think people (that's humans, same as you and me) would leave their friends and family to make a journey with a high risk of death just for money? Do you know the top 6 richest people in the world have the same wealth as the poorest 50%?
What to do about African migrants? Let them in. And their families. Deal with inequality. Stop seeing life as a big pie where if someone else gets something it means less for you. Have some fucking empathy for people.

JumpingJellybeanz · 07/07/2017 23:26

We need to address the push factors at a global level. Inequality, oppression, war, hunger etc. People wouldn't put their lives on the line to make the journey if they were safe and had a decent life back home.

ReleaseTheBats · 07/07/2017 23:48

Quentin Please read some of the studies done, including by organisations such as the UNHCR. You might think it "horrible" to say so but very many migrants are economic migrants.

I don't think you have a monopoly on empathy, btw. Many people claim that the current immigration policy is adding to the number of drowning at sea by encouraging people to make perilous journeys.

We also need to think about the effects on our country, and the people left behind when large numbers of male migrants leave an area.

Lastly, if you think we should just let all African migrants on who wish to come (no limits??) do aquaint yourself with the projections for population growth in Africa over the next few decades and perhaps consider if that view is really realistic.

ReleaseTheBats · 07/07/2017 23:54

www.unhcr.org/uk/mixed-migration-europe.html

Taking their chances on fishing boats, dinghies and canoes, every year thousands of men, women and children drown in a desperate bid to reach Europe from Africa.

They cross from West Africa to the Spanish Canary Islands,from Morocco to southern Spain,from Libya to Malta and the Italian islands of Sicily and Lampedusa,and from Turkey to the islands of Greece.

Many more enter the European Union by land, via Turkey and the Balkans or from Ukraine and Belarus.

People entering Europe irregularly –without passports or visas –do so for a variety of reasons. In some cases, they are fleeing persecution, human rights violations and armed conflict and can, therefore, be considered as refugees who need special protection. More often, they are migrants trying to escape poverty and unemployment.

DangerMouse17 · 07/07/2017 23:55

We need to help make their own countries better placesoon to live. Nobody on this planet should live without food, water, security and prospects. Not in this day and age.