EU citizens and UK Settled Status

[StillGotCake]

I am fast losing the little confidence I have left in Teresa May.

The proposed arrangements for EU citizens post-Brexit are a dog's dinner.

In particular, EU citizens who have previously acquired a permanent residency card (at significant cost and in the face of excessive bureaucracy) are now told that they shouldn't have bothered. It's worthless. They will need to reapply for "Settled Status".

For the love of God, why?? Is TM determined to make the UK the most disliked nation on the planet? If EU citizens have already applied successfully for a PERMANENT residency card surely that can be simply transferred over to settled status without further bureaucracy (and fees).

I have been generally supportive of the U.K. govt in trying to navigate a pathway through Brexit, but my patience is wearing thin. They look incompetent and we are becoming a deeply unloved laughing stock.

Couldn't agree more. Complete pigs ear. Already UK is seeing impact with a massive drop in nurse and doctor recruitment from EU. We cannot sustain any form of healthcare without immigrant professionals let alone save the NHS. Farmers are saying they don't have sufficient workers to pick crops and hotel industry is something like 70% migrant workers.
Doesn't bode well, I'm afraid.

I am not happy about it. Some feeliingbof achadenfreude yes but I shouldn't gloat as there is nothing to gloat about. And i do feel sorry for people now in this horrible position and I have been there and am still there actually until i take british nationality. I have seen families split apart and people living in exile due to the unfair laws against non EU citizens. It a terrible thing.
BUT: I will stand by this. If the law should change then they should change for ALL immigrants. Currently NON EU immigrants are at the bottom of the pile. They accept this as EU immigrants previously held privileged status due to membership in the union. Now there is no more distinction between immigrants and so the law should be applied across the board.
@mistigri non EU immigrants have been turned out after years and years here and their families split up even though they may have spouses and children who are British. No one cared about that and no one defended them against blatantly draconian and unfair laws. Are those British values then? Or should we care about British values only when things are unfair to EU (ie mainly white) citizens.
It is a strange and sad thing when the one person/politician to highlight the unfairness of this flawed two tier immigration system and the blatant trampling of the rights of non EU immigrants who have settled status and British spouses was Nigel Farage.
And why has NO ONE managed to reply me on these issues: why is It ok that non EU immigrants have to hold ID cards and not ok for EU immigrants to? Why is it OK for non EU immigrants to have to formalize their residence but not OK for EU citizens to? Why is it OK for non EU citizens to have their families split up due to being unable to meet an arbitrary income level but not OK to expect EU immigrants to do the same? Previous the answer would have been EU membership has its privileges. But UK is out of the EU now and so those privileges don't apply.
I see everyone is sidestepping the points I have made previously about NON EU immigrants having to hold ID cards etc and why is it that it was deemed acceptable for them to be othered as second class. Un till people address this issue and I see the same kind of outrage, questioning and compassion about the unfairness of the law against non EU citizens, my sympathy in this is quite limited. It's not good and it's not fair but oh well!
My sneaking suspicion is that the lack of outrage on behalf of non EU citizens is due to racism. It's ok for black Caribbeans or brown South Asians to be treated second class and have their families split up. They are second class, third world savages and probably here to be on the scrounge for benefits anyway. Never mind most if them come from Commonwealth countries of the former Empire and speak English.
But it is certainly not right for lily white French, German and Poles etc to be treated second class, oh No!

Just want to put in some points here... not giving an opinion one way or another about the new proposals, just sharing my knowledge to help aid the discussion.

1. Non-EU citizens do not have to carry around their biometric cards. Yes, they need to keep them with their passport when they travel in and out of the country, as there is no longer a physical stamp in the passport, but there is no need to keep it on them at all times. Likewise, they need to show evidence of their status when applying for a job, but so does EVERYONE else, British citizens included. If you haven't been asked by your employer, then your employer is breaking the law.

1. The potential to lose your permanent residency is there now. If someone with ILR or permanent residency as an EEA national leaves for two years, they can lose that status. The difference in the future will be that the EEA citizen will not easily get back in again as they do now. The simple answer is do not let your PR lapse. If you are sent away by your business, just take a holiday back to the UK every year. That will preserve your status, especially if you are still employed by a UK company and are on a fixed term assignment. The immigration officer is looking for signs that you have abandoned your residency. Regular visits back will reinforce this. Yes there is a danger if you get a grumpy immigration officer that they say a holiday is not preserving residence, but I have yet to see that happen.

1. My advice to anyone is get citizenship if at all possible. Yes there will be some cases where it is not possible e.g. you don't want to give up your original citizenship, or you cannot afford the fees - but for those who can, take emotion out of it. Don't get wrapped up in the whole 'I don't feel British' argument. Treat it as a legal transaction. Do your paperwork, go to the ceremony, sit on your phone through it as I have seen many people do, get your naturalisation certificate, and you have secured your future. I agree there are times to be principled and stand up for things.. in my opinion now is not that time. Play the game, so you at least keep your options open for your future.

mistigri non EU immigrants have been turned out after years and years here and their families split up even though they may have spouses and children who are British. No one cared about that and no one defended them against blatantly draconian and unfair laws.

This is blatantly untrue. Indeed, many of the same people who are actively opposing this proposal are also involved in immigration rights for non-EU nationals. A good example is immigration lawyer and campaigner Colin Yeo whose article on the issues with the UK proposal is here:

www.freemovement.org.uk/analysis-what-is-the-uk-proposing-for-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-and-eu-citizens-in-the-eu/

I can't imagine they would make EU citizens carry an ID card with them at all times as well. It would simply be a card confirming their legal residence status to be used when they travel or apply for work,benefits, so the idea of a 1930s style Nazi identification scheme to harass EU immigrants is hyperbolic scaremongering.

The new immigration laws proposed for EU citizens may also help stop one ofbthe most common scams going around which annoys the he'll out of me. The draconian immigration rules regarding NON EU spouses of British nationals were put in place to prevent people using marriage to gains foothold in The UK. Primarily it was used to target people from the Indian sub continent who would get a British citizen to marry someone from"back home" in order that they could come to UK. The laws insisting on English proficiency and minimum income was designed to prevent that or at least put a vast barrier to those who were marginally employed and uneducated.
This did not solve the problem but simply transferred it. Chances from NON EU countries now simply enter in to sham marriage with people from EU countries and that would automatically give them the right to reside in the UK as the spouse of someone enjoying freedom of movement. So problem not solved and misery heaped onto genuine couples. Hopefully the new laws will ensure parity for all and put an end to these scams.

fatdogs I think that you have a point about the comparative treatment of EU and Non-EU immigration (and I suspect that resentment of preferential treatment for EU immigrants contributed in some way to the Leave vote). I would ask you to take on board that EU citizens came here in the knowledge that they were locating to another EU country, with all of the rights and protections that brings. We decided to leave the EU - they had no say in the matter - we should do the right thing.

Should we be "fair" and "generous" to non-EU immigrants too. Yes, of course. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that...

serfturf. PR holders get access to a shorter process at a reduced fee

How much shorter process? An 84 page form rather than an 85 page one? Or will it be a 5 minute online process?

How much of a reduced fee? £5 off? Free?

They've had the best part of a year to work this out!

0nline

special not proper EU type status

Having spent some time in Italy, there is some charm to their bureaucratic chaos. Even if it's hard to appreciate at the time. We are coming across as mean-spirited and small-minded. They have better weather too and better ice-cream.

lucysky one alligence

Sounds like the Tebbitt test. We're better than that, aren't we? I'm proud that this is a tolerant country. If people feel alligence to France, India, Scotland, Liverpool, Kansas, Romania, etc, etc... so what? I hope that they will have some affection for the UK too, but we can't force people to feel British

I am with fat dogs. And possibly from the same country. I took British citizenship and gave up my original nationality because I couldn't live with the uncertainty.

1. It's not about a race to the bottom. It's as if ppl have suddenly realised how absurd visa rules are when they have been absurd for DECADES. So either you overhaul the entire system including non EU citizens giving them more rights (and who wants that) or bring all immigrants into the same system.

1. And immigration rules change in the U.K. retroactively all the time. The Points system was changed after people moved here. Same with the PSW visa. At least there was an actual referendum. Those rules were changed arbitrarily. I used to dread April when the HO would announce their random rule changes and I would be scrambling to see if we made the cut.

'It's been shit for me, why would it be better for EU people?'
What a nice attitude fatdogs and Luchi

I have noe passport and one nation. My ancestors were here and others came and stayed and threw off all allegiance elsewhere and chance to be elsewhere and put their all into the UK.

Those who want to stay here are probably best off leaving their other nationality behind and seeking full British citizenship if they are allowed to do so. This is a good country in which to live so I am sure that will end up being the right choice.

However I agree it is a period of uncertainty at present although moving countries and often not being sure if you will move back home or not (most people who come to the UK from the EU by the way have always come for a few years when young and then moved back for always lived with uncertainty anyway as to when they'd decide to move back). The rest of us who are not immigrants have no choice - we are here and don't have an option of another country. Plenty of us have never been abroad nor been rich enough to afford to go abroad by the way.

As someone from outside EU I had to go thru a long hassle to get ILR & eventually citizenship. Regularly registering at the police station every time I moved house, stony eyed treatment from immigration control. I would still like EU citizens to have some kind of preferential treatment compared to people like me. Then again, I don't want UK to leave EU at all (argh).

I can't imagine they would make EU citizens carry an ID card with them at all times as well.

No, I agree, I don't think that will be required (and I think the proposed arrangements are broadly reasonable).

But it's the line for me. IF 24/7 card carrying and production on demand were introduced, I'd be as quick to protest, march or whatever as anyone else. I know from another thread that this is a worry for some people and I don't blame them for that.

Sorry but justifying the changes for EU citizens because Non EU citizens are treated badly really misses the point

When a Non EU citizen moves here they know they may have limited rights to remain. EU citizens settled with full rights as EU citizens

They should not be treated the same as non EU it's just sour grapes to suggest they should

No one cared

Not true. The legacy of Theresa May in the Home Office is a disgrace. So many posters on MN have expressed dismay about the broken up families and shameful treatment of non EU migrants. I posted about ilegal deportations targeting the sick, the disabled and the vulnerable, going back 15 years. Two wrongs won't make a right, no matter how bitter you are.

God help everyone if (when?) Theresa May gets rid of the Human Rights Act.

@madrettanquilitas we or at least I (can't speak on behalf of LuchiMangsho did not have a problem with things NOT being shit for EU citizens when being in the EU had its privileges. But on leaving the EU, why should those privileges still exist? Please give me a good reason why there should be a 2 tier system between immigrants AFTER Brexit? So do you agree that non EU citizens are worth less and should be so treated?

@everthinkyouhavebeemconned but EU citizens are NOT being treated badly. All those who have settled before Brexit have the right to apply for leave to remain and possibly citizenship. They CAN stay. No one is saying They can't. They simply have to formalize it through an administrative process. I don't think that is unreasonable compared to the process non EU citizens go through.

It should not be compared to any other process

And yes they are being treated badly. They moved here in good faith that their rights and way of life would not be amended. That they would be protected under EU law as an EU citizen in an EU country

Unless you can supply a direct comparison for 3 million non EU citizens . Otherwise the comparison is moot

Well a lot of non EU people moved here in good faith on work visas thinking they could apply to settle after 5 years only to find an arbitrary income minimum requirement imposed. Rules on immigration change restrospectvely all the time. Relationships between countries change on a whim. My polish colleague who has been here since the early 90s too citizenship the minute she saw the wave of Polish migration starting. In her words, " the English are not going to be happy about all of these Polish coming here and one day they will insist we all leave. So I want to make sure they can't get rid of me and seperate me from my children amd husband." Incidentally she didn't go on to have any children with that husband and they are now divorced but she is sitting pretty with a UK passport and No uncertainties.

And yes they are being treated badly. They moved here in good faith that their rights and way of life would not be amended. That they would be protected under EU law as an EU citizen in an EU country

By that logic we're ALL being "treated badly". I was born here "in good faith" but Brexit is happening whether I want to retain my EU rights or not, whether I want to work in the EU with ease again or not.

Fat I really question your anti EU citizen rants and borderline racism you are projecting.

It's really unpleasant please stop

Yes Serf we are. You know we are

I don't see what else you think is feasible.

The referendum happened. Lots of people aren't happy. However, something has to be put into place to make it work and everyone has to live with it. None of it will be perfect.

Borderline racism??? How am I racist? Even if I was anti EU , being EU citizen is not a race. I am pointing out that insisting on preferential treatment for EU citizens in immigration IS possibly borderline or outright racist considering the vast majority of NON EU citizens who will be prejudiced are non white.
Please do not accuse me of being racist. It is these ridiculous accusations of racism whenever anyone pints one a JUSTIFIED issue of anomaly surrounding immigration that is one of the major factors that lead to Brexit. When people are shouted down as racist for voicing or engaging in debate about valid concerns, they will turn to displaying their unhappiness in other ways.