Josie Long - we are more at risk from right wing extremists than Islamic extremists

[Goodluckjonathan76]

A friend just posted a link to Josie's rant on her Facebook page. I honestly felt sick watching it. For a start, in terms of numbers of deaths, we are looking at 2 deaths (Jo Cox and man at Finsbury Park mosque) (please correct me if I am wrong) compared to multiple deaths in Manchester and London Bridge, not to mention the attacks in Paris, Nice and Brussels. Firstly, how is this the time to be comparing which is worse, and secondly, if we must compare then Islamic extremists pose a far greater risk in terms of loss of life. Am I missing something? Or has the world gone mad.

Don't try to argue in public if you're the sort of person who loses your temper. Choose a spokesperson who won't.

I'm not sure whether to bother responding but here goes. No-one was being a spokesperson for anyone. Two people were arguing in the street. I don't think the man lost his temper. I think the woman did.

I'm calling him anti Muslim because he associates himself with the EDL. Not because he is opposed to a Muslim extremeism and Sharia law. Although I'm not sure what Sharia law's got to do with it.

"I'm not sure whether to bother responding but here goes. No-one was being a spokesperson for anyone. Two people were arguing in the street. I don't think the man lost his temper. I think the woman did."

I agree. That's what I meant. I think the woman screwed up badly. I would also be very surprised indeed if the man was just a random who happened to turn up for the march.

What Sharia law has to do with it is that that is partly what the march was about. It was originally planned by Gays against Sharia, and then morphed into being wider and including anti Islamist extremism.

So if you have a march of say 3,000 people (I have no idea how many were at that march, I am just using a figure) and say 300 of them are EDL (again, just for argument sake). And the march is to demonstrate against Islamist extremism and the failure of the government to deal adequately with it, and against Sharia law in the UK, then everyone on that march, whether they agree with the EDL or not, and whether they are black, white, Muslim, Sikh, ex-Muslim, gay etc etc is anti-Muslim, just because they are on the same march as some EDL members? Really?

I agree. That's what I meant Apologies, I misunderstood.

What would you like Muslims to do to improve things? - integrate into society, learn the language of the country you live in (this goes for any migrant to the UK, or any UK migrant to any part of the world), don't cover yourself head to toe and hide your face - physically creating a barrier to everyone else, be seen by HCP's of the opposite sex - and be bloody grateful for the NHS, stop forced marriage, shut down any mosque that is proven to incite hatred or radicalism, accept LGBT people, shut down all sharia courts, don't have children with your 1st cousins (yes this goes for other religions and cultures too)...

I would add oppose stoning people to death.

Allow Muslim women to file for divorce!

I would add allowing your daughter's to befriend non Muslims. I am Indian but not Muslim. I have lost count of the amount of friends I had lost throughout childhood through to university because their parents found out I was not Muslim. I know it was this, because I was welcome in their homes and they were perfectly lovely until they found out I was Christian and presumably a bad influence. It's only by integrating with others that you know people are not sluts because they drink or wear strappy tips in the summer.

integrate into society, in what way?learn the language of the country you live in (this goes for any migrant to the UK, or any UK migrant to any part of the world) Language tests already apply for employment-should you still have to take a test if you are a spouse? don't cover yourself head to toe and hide your face - physically creating a barrier to everyone else I'm ambivalent about this one-if I could be sure a woman was making a completely free choice to cover I don't see why she shouldn't be seen by HCP's of the opposite sex don'5 agree with this one-lots of people want to see a HCP of the same sex for all sorts of rewsons- and be bloody grateful for the NHS any suggestion they aren't?, stop forced marriage agreed shut down any mosque that is proven to incite hatred or radicalism agreed accept LGBT people agreed-but that apples to most of rhe population shut down all sharia courts don't know enough about this to comment don't have children with your 1st cousins (yes this goes for other religions and cultures too)... agreed

I hope you are campaigning just as vigorously for Hasidic Jews and fundamentalist Christians to "integrate" too?

Hilarious. BetrandRussell calls someone they don't know anti Muslim for "associating" with the EDL by sharing a street with them but won't engage on any /substantive/ point. Methinks they need a new moniker as their namesake would have been appalled.

What about those who share their worship with those have the ideals I posted earlier?

How about engaging with my core point rather than accusing people of racism or prejudice?

How about explaining why having a group that subscribes to a belief system that includes the idea the kuffar are lower than dogs etc is NOT an issue for the rest of us?

How about explaining why it isn't corrosive about allowing free speech for those who call for sharia and beheading those who insult Islam coupled with "hate" speech restrictions that allow offence to be defined byvth offended.

How it isn't an issue that police refuse to record a hate crime when a lady points out the Hezbollah flag is flown in central London, or the black flag with the shahada (typically flown by IS and historically at the head of Muslim armies) is flown as "that isn't the law" when it bloody well is.

What about the mayor of London authorising knowing full well a terrorist flag was likely to be flown showing support for terrorist which is a serious offence.

What about ignoring the hezbollah flag on the basis that it is a political flag when the head of hezbollah says there is no split between a "political wing" and an "armed wing" it is all one organisation fighting to drive the Jews into the sea. Chants if "from the river to the sea" have a specific meaning but plod does nothing.

Try calling a Police horse gay and see how the law responds.

Try telling me the problem is right wingers when clearly the system and those who operate it has taken a liberal belief system (good) and used it to defend to the point of favour a system of beliefs that is clearly as illiberal as any seen for decades and has been responsible for the deaths of millions (bad, very bad indeed). That's a massive corrosion of the system that the "right wingers" are seeking to defend.

I have no time for those who judge others before giving them a chance to set out their stall.

But similarly I have no time for those who don't use their brain and think for themselves and don't actively test their own beliefs. An example would be demonising those who want less immigration in the basis that all immigration is good. It isn't clearly otherwise those people who have been killed by islamists born of immigrants would still be alive. But it isn't an unalloyed bad either.

Anyway.....this thread has diverted in the way that all debates like this do, into something that misses the point and targets dissenters. The irony of a thread on Josie L's intolerance ending up this way is not lost on me. Q.E.D.

Scary thing is I agree with much else of what BR says but it is a diversion saying "campaign against Hasidic Jews". They are not blowing us up or driving over us and don't cause a worldwide terror problem.

Proportionality matters when practical thinks come up.

Language tests already apply for employment-should you still have to take a test if you are a spouse? - well as someone who lives among MANY Muslim women who don't speak English, even after living I'm the country for year, YES.

if I could be sure a woman was making a completely free choice to cover I don't see why she shouldn't - that's the beauty of brainwashing though, isn't it? Those affected by it don't even know it.

lots of people want to see a HCP of the same sex for all sorts of reasons - well as someone who works in the NHS, I see many Muslim.women every day who refuse to be seen or examined by male doctors and nurses, and I'm not just talking about in an intimate / gynecological sense.

So do you think that nobody should be allowed to ask for a HCP of the same sex then? I do.

My brother's wife has lived in this country for nearly 10 years now. She's Spanish. Her English is still extremely ropy. She is, as so many English people say "No good at languages". What should be done to her?

I do think it's up to Muslim women to decide about covering. Happy to take the lead from them.

"Scary thing is I agree with much else of what BR says but it is a diversion saying "campaign against Hasidic Jews". They are not blowing us up or driving over us and don't cause a worldwide terror problem."

I thought we agreed that neither are the vast majority of Muslims. I only mentioned Hasidic Jews because many of the things people want Muslims to do in order to integrate apply to them to. Can we insist that Muslim women uncover and not them too? Can we insist that Muslims accept LGBT people and not insist that fundamentalist Christians do too? Obviously they are bound by discrimination laws- but insist on further acceptance? How?

No, I understand that people have the right to request a HCP of whatever sex they choose. However this is a request and not a demand - the overwhelming majority of those that I have witnessed 'kicking off' about not getting their way are Muslim husbands in regards to their wives care when we are short staffed and not much we can do. This is very often uninvasive care - usually straightforward basic investigations. It's ridiculous.

And in regards learning language - yes, I think everyone should try. I lived in China for 2 years in my 20s and then Greece for 6 months later on. I did my best and learnt enough Mandarin to get me by (more than I thought I would actually as I'm terrible as languages). Again, going back to my workplace - we waste much time organising and waiting for interpreters for those that have lived in the country for ten years and can't get through a basic conversation. It costs the NHS a fortune and they don't even attempt to communicate. Again, it's ridiculous.

Can we insist that Muslim women uncover and not them too? - since when did Hasidic Jewish women cover their faces?

They are not blowing us up or driving over us and don't cause a worldwide terror problem.

Which brings us neatly back to the original point, the 'far right' (and I use the term loosely because it is used to demonise people who often aren't actually far right) are not, generally, trying to blow us up. They don't hate our country or our way of life and there is no evidence to suggest they are planning organised terrorist attacks or even that they might. We've had two incidents which could be considered far right terrorism but neither of them appear to be connected to any groups in terms of any real involvement or collaboration wrt to the actual attacks being carried out. The rhetoric of Britain First et al may well be a factor in terms of motivation for those attacks but those groups are not calling for their supporters to kill anyone whereas ISIS most certainly are. That is why JL's stance that she is more afraid of the far right is so ridiculous, the rhetoric is a danger to our liberal values yes (as is the Islamist rhetoric) but they pose nothing like the same level of physical threat as ISIS supporters.

I thought we agreed that neither are the vast majority of Muslims.. We did. But then again there are several orders of magnitude more muslims. Or perhaps you didn't realise that? That makes the issue orders of magnitude greater.

My wife is not English. Her English is better than almost any native speaker I know. She studied.

My friend (PhD so very smart) has a mother who speaks no English at all. She has lived in the Uk for 40+ years.

This is all however irrelevant to the core point made.

the 'far right' (and I use the term loosely because it is used to demonise people who often aren't actually far right) are not, generally, trying to blow us up. They don't hate our country or our way of life and there is no evidence to suggest they are planning organised terrorist attacks or even that they might."

That's why the distinction between "more frightened of "and "more at risk from" is so important. I am more at risk of being killed by an ISIS terrorist (not a very big risk at all) than by a member of the far right. But I'm more frightened of the far right because they are actually more likely to destroy the society I want to live in than ISIS are.

I'm more frightened of the far right because they are actually more likely to destroy the society I want to live in than ISIS are.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that Bertrand, I don't believe the 'far right' will ever have enough influence to destroy our society. I don't believe ISIS will either as it goes but I do believe they will kill many more innocent people and that, to me, is much more frightening.

I would not restrict what women can wear and not wear. I want the right to show a lot of my body on all UK streets even in Jewish and Muslim areas of course too just as I am happy to let women cover themselves up totally and walk up my road.

The hassidic jews in London and elsewhere have never caused us any problems and as long as they comply with English law - no marriage before the marriage age, freedom for people to leave it they wish we can leave them alone just as I would leave very strict muslims alone too who are not interfering with my way of life. I want to live in a UK where you can say down with the Queen or there is no God or you will all burn in hell if you dion't believe in Allah or God or engage in anal sex or deny the holocaust or whatever.

However when groups in the UK interfere with how the rest of us live then we step in.

I also want us always to enforce the law so eg illegal immigrants should be removed. Apparently only 1 in 1000 people who over stay a visa are removed! That should be 999 in 1000 surely and if it's not working as things stand get a private contractor paid by results with rights to appeal only once you've left on the job.

I think what often gets forgotten in discussing the risk and fear of Islamist terrorist attacks is that just equating them to the risk of eg being killed in a car crash is really missing the point.

Hate crimes are treated particularly harshly by our justice system in recognition of the fact that a racially motivated assault, for example, is worse than a none racially motivated assault (or murder etc) because the effect on the victim of being targeted specifically because of who they are is recognised.

However with Islamist attacks, the fact that people are targeted specifically by the terrorists because of who they are is often glossed over. I can cope with the idea that I might get killed in a car crash. It doesn't stop me getting in a car. I find it very hard to cope with the idea that I, or one of my children, might die getting our throats slit, in a bloodbath of horror, because of who we are and because we are hated for who we are. This terrifies me far more than the thought of death

And what I find particularly dreadful is that the people doing these attacks have lived, been brought up and educated in our midst. I have walked past the Didsbury mosque hundreds of times, and around the area where Abedi lived. I always thought people in these places got on well and, on the whole, respected one another. I now know there were people preaching hatred of non-Muslims in the mosque and that people like Abedi, living in the midst of the community, can have such hatred for others as to blow up children and families at a concert. I feel the same about the Finsbury Park attacker, but there are several differences. One the number of attacks and therefore number of people planning or willing to carry them out (2 right wing murders in recent years versus goodness knows how many Islamist murders, and 23,000 known jihadis in the UK). The second is the lack of being part of an organised structure with a clear and stated aim, at least for FP, it seems less clear cut for the murderer of Jo Cox.

So to me, it is far wider than fear of being the victim of an Islamist attack. It is the fear and awfulness of living in a society where a non negligible proportion of the population wish to do these kind of acts and the motivations behind the attacks.

seculardetective.wordpress.com/2017/06/25/on-finsbury-park-and-the-stone-of-sisyphus/amp/

Crossword - I live less than a mile from where Abedi did, and where Didsbury mosque is, and also felt the same way.
To know that, infact, this hate is being spread right under our noses is just vile. Why hasn't Didsbury mosque been investigated since??