Josie Long - we are more at risk from right wing extremists than Islamic extremists

[Goodluckjonathan76]

A friend just posted a link to Josie's rant on her Facebook page. I honestly felt sick watching it. For a start, in terms of numbers of deaths, we are looking at 2 deaths (Jo Cox and man at Finsbury Park mosque) (please correct me if I am wrong) compared to multiple deaths in Manchester and London Bridge, not to mention the attacks in Paris, Nice and Brussels. Firstly, how is this the time to be comparing which is worse, and secondly, if we must compare then Islamic extremists pose a far greater risk in terms of loss of life. Am I missing something? Or has the world gone mad.

"And you haven't answered the point that British people as a whole don't want and never did want immigration on the scale we have witnessed in the last 50 years."

Can'really answer something that's just an unsubstantiated claim. Incidentally, how is it relevant to the OP?

Oh and Bertrand Russel is right. I isn't an issue with immigration, it is an issue with immigrant culture and beliefs. Sikhs and Indians and Hong Kong Chinese are generally very well integrated with belief systems based on the golden rule, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

I am sure that the vast majority of the country don't give a rat's arse what colour you are, or even how many heads you have, as long as you adopt the golden rule. Oh, and drink tea and warm beer and like football or rugby.

Do you honestly think the British people wanted amount of immigration we've seen. If so then why has no major political party run on a more immigration platform. 52% of the population voted to leave the EU largely but not exclusively to reduce immigration even though they warned they would be likely to be worse of financially. If it was just vote to reduce immigration without any financial problems other than those caused by lack of immigrants do you think the vote would have been higher or lower ?.
I think we moved away from the OP on the first page TBH. B

Welcome back WiseDad. An incredibly well thought out post - agree entirely.

Wisedad - great post. I'm not articulate or well read enough to put my argument across so well. I'm glad there are people out there like yourself who can do so on other behalf!

"Whenever the British public are asked if they think there is too much immigration in opinion polls the overwhelming majority of people say yes." Partucularly, I understand, if they live in areas of particularly low immigration.........

Do you have any evidence for this? I thought all the polls (up to the referendum campaigns began when people started to be told it was racists to want less immigration) showed anywhere between 70 and 80% of the population wanting less immigration, with the figures for immigrants and descendents of immigrants not being that different to the rest of the population.

Can I recommend The Road to Somewhere by David Goodhart. It is an excellent book in many ways. One of the very interesting parts is the section on the myth of London. DG shows, through various poll data etc, that the idea that London is some wonderful example of multiculturalism and integration is, well, a myth. In fact, integration (measured in various ways, eg by interaction with people of a different ethnicity to you) is actually lower in London than the rest of the country and inequalities are higher. Similarly the idea that people are more "tolerant" and positive about immigration in London does not fit the facts. So for example, if you look at white British people in London, according to the studies DG references, their attitudes are no different to white British people in the rest of the country.

" 52% of the population voted to leave the EU largely but not exclusively to reduce immigration "

Now that's something I really thought we weren't allowed to say!

But isn't the point that white men aren't being told to integrate here, and Muslims are? So of course we want to try and avoid the kind of rhetoric that allows suspicion of all Muslims to become accepted and normal.

How do we want Muslims to show that they've integrated?

And I'm definitely more concerned about the erosion of values we've built as a society of tolerance and refusing to stoop to the level of people who don't share those values. In that context it's more scary to me to see friends expressing more far-right views.

I don't know Bertrand, but we can't say they're not trying whilst simultaneously allowing Islamophobia to become more acceptable.

I don't understand why people think criticism of Muslims or Islam is being silenced.

It is not always overt. It is things like people coming on the MN threads and throwing words like "Islamaphobic" at every one trying to discuss the issue without any evidence of anti-Muslim bigotry having been seem.

It is things like people, instead of arguing with the issues which people are discussing, trying to twist what people are saying so that they can accuse them (on the basis of what they haven't said) of anti-Muslim bigotry, racism or the like.

It is things like people popping on to threads to tell people they are too ignorant to discuss Islam, even when it is one of the most important issue facing us and one which anyone concerned for their children's future needs to be considering.

It is things like Paul Nuttall being shouted down on BBC Leaders Debate for saying we need to name and be able to talk about Islamist extremism and being told (via the twisting method above) by Caroline Lucas that in saying this he is saying all Muslims were responsible for the Manchester Arena bombing, when he said no such thing.

It is things like Andy Burnham slurring everyone on the UK Against Hate march in Manchester on 11th June as EDL-types, and on being told they were not EDL-types but gay people, people of all ethnicities, Muslims, ex-Muslims etc, saying "I don't care".

It is the way the march yesterday of thousands of football fans in London against Islamist extremism was not coverered by most of the media, and the few which did called it an EDL march (despite the fact that there was an actual EDL march happening at the same time elsewhere in London )

It is the way if I started a thread on MN saying I thought homosexuality should be illegal, I would pretty quickly be told where to go and the thread would be deleted. But we don't talk publicly about the fact that many Muslims hold exactly this view.

It is the way anyone who tries to talk publicly about how we as a society deal with Islam gets called, sooner or later, a bigot and racist and accused of being far-right, when the only "far-right" views they have are that they are concerned about the effects Islam is having on our society.

it's more scary to me to see friends expressing more far-right views.

Sorry, it's more start to you that friends express certain views, than actual people being blown up/plowed down and stabbed to death? Is that what you just said?

scary

UK against Hate=Tommy Robinson.

As I said earlier, I am more scared of the extreme right in this country than I am of ISIS terrorism. That seems entirely logical to me.

UK against Hate=Tommy Robinson

It's just that simple isn't it, Bertrand?

Please watch this video where a black man (and it is relevant that he is black) discusses the march with a counter-protestor.

Black people can be anti Muslim too. Who knew?

Black people can be anti Muslim too

Is that the only thing you took from that?

But I realized in the old National Front days that it is no point arguing with bigots. Same goes for EDL.

"Black people can be anti Muslim too

Is that the only thing you took from that?"

Yep. Did I miss something else? Oh yes. Don't try to argue in public if you're the sort of person who loses your temper. Choose a spokesperson who won't.

Why do you think Tommy Robinson and such like have no problem with Hindus, Sikhs, those of Caribbean decent etc? He clearly isn't racist.
Do you think one day people like him woke up and thought "hmm what can I do today? I know, I'll criticize Islam for the lols".
OR did he look at the bigger picture and see a very clear pattern between Islam and its incompatibility with liberal western society and decide to speak out about it?

Black people can be anti Muslim too. Who knew?

Bertrand I had thought you were discussing the issue in good faith on this thread, but I now think perhaps you are not.

Interesting that you simultaneously on the one hand claim that no-one is silencing discussion about problematic aspects of Islam and on the other slur a man you have never met as anti Muslim because he attended a march against Islamist extremism and Sharia law. Thank you for illustrating my point. I rest my case.

Sorry, it's more start to you that friends express certain views, than actual people being blown up/plowed down and stabbed to death? Is that what you just said?

I'm talking about my perceived risk to ME. For ME the risk isn't all about death - it's also about other aspects that affect my daily life. I've been subjected to racist abuse and attacked by non-Muslims multiple times on this basis (I'm white btw) so yes, for me, that is more scary.

I'm an atheist and I find all religion problematic and have been very critical for years but I've never been called racist or Islamophobic because of that.

Namechange.

How does the incompatibility manifest itself?

What would you like Muslims to do to improve things?