Josie Long - we are more at risk from right wing extremists than Islamic extremists

[Goodluckjonathan76]

A friend just posted a link to Josie's rant on her Facebook page. I honestly felt sick watching it. For a start, in terms of numbers of deaths, we are looking at 2 deaths (Jo Cox and man at Finsbury Park mosque) (please correct me if I am wrong) compared to multiple deaths in Manchester and London Bridge, not to mention the attacks in Paris, Nice and Brussels. Firstly, how is this the time to be comparing which is worse, and secondly, if we must compare then Islamic extremists pose a far greater risk in terms of loss of life. Am I missing something? Or has the world gone mad.

Pann, so a middle-aged white women makes a ridiculous comment and that makes young white men violent? I know muslims are feeling sensitive but you are talking rubbish.

I confess I haven't read the whole thread but we are giving into what all extremists want if we continue to hate and be vile this is divisive this may have already have been said but may be we shouldn't read too much into the newspapers or media sometimes there hysterical interpretations, can act as a catalyst for people to carry out such vile acts of pure hatred but what I feel so sad about is I feel we are at war and all those who died in vain for this country Hoping it was the war to end all wars how so terribly wrong and sad and futile it all is We need to have honest discussions but with respect and less anger if we have a chance of moving forward and maybe we need to start doing so on these threads Right ?

Yes Mind I think we'd all like a bit more peace and love but that's only likely to happen if everyone is open to debate and that's impossible when people's perfectly understandable concerns about the Islamic ideology are dismissed as 'islamophobic'.

"Bertrand Can I ask you whether there are aspects of Islam, in this country and elsewhere, which you would like to see changed or reformed?"

Well, as I start from a position of wanting an end to all religion, then yes of course! I think Islam is a sexist and homophobic religion and should reform. I think the rule of law should apply. However, I do not think the average Muslim in the street is any more responsible for ISIS terrorism than I think the average Catholic in the street was responsible for IRA terrorism or, for that matter, sexual abuse of children. Or that the average Jewish person in the street is responsible for the bombing of civilians in Gaza.

Incidentally, be very careful before taking PJW on board. On Long or on anything.

Just because communism failed (under which religions were banned - I said above I would not ban religions by the way) does not mean we cannot wish people would stop believing in invented Gods.

It is all going pretty well. More people in the UK now don't believe in God than do. There is no major issue. As people are shown the light and get better educated fewer believe in God and we move towards a better society (and in my view as a capitalist that would certainly not be a communist society).

She is awful.

Fascinating how measured the criticisms of Long are.

I would love to know how many people have watched her video and how many are basing their assessment on PJW.

In case anyone hasn't seen PJW's video, he extracts 2 sentences from Long's, plays them repeatedly in various silly voices, and calls her a moron.

And at no point does she say that we are more at risk from right wing extremists than Islamic extremists. She says she is more frightened of right wing extremists than Islamic extremists. A very different thing.

She says she is more frightened of right wing extremists than Islamic extremists. Why does she feel more frightened of right wing extremists?

Well, I'm not particularly frightened of terrorists. They are evil bastards but know I would have to be incredibly unlucky to fall victim to one. I am frightened of what right wing extremists are trying to do to my country. I am frightened of life without an NHS. For example.

I am scared of international terrorism. It's in the back of my mind when I fly, when I'm in crowded places and at large events. The threat and risk is real.

Right wing ideology has existed for far longer and while I hate these people and their ridiculous ideas, they don't keep me awake at night in the same way.

Do yes I am more scared of international terrorism, based on events of the last few years.

However, I do not think the average Muslim in the street is any more responsible for ISIS terrorism than I think the average Catholic in the street was responsible for IRA terrorism or, for that matter, sexual abuse of children

Bertrand This is a genuine question. Do you think that I and other pp on this thread who do not agree with JL's comments believe that the average Muslim in the street is responsible for ISIS terrorism? If you do, can you explain what I or other pp have said which gives you this impression?

We would probably get further with making sense of this issue if we didn't say things like "Islamic extremists vs right wing extremists."

Islamic extremists ARE right wing extremists. They are religious bigots who despise atheists and members of other religions and have repulsive ideas about gender, gay people and Jews. Sounds pretty right wing to me.

If what we mean is "Islamic extremists vs white nationalist extremists," I don't fancy either side much, but statistically I think the threat from the first is greater (for the moment. Who knows what the situation could be like in the future).

I do think international terrorism is a greater threat to us all, including Muslim people, than right wing extremism.

Islamic extremism is a global movement with a stated intention to spread fear and destruction. The largest group of victims of this is Muslim people -millions displaced from their homes - but there has also been genocide of specific groups of people -look at the rape and enslavement and extermination of the Yazidi people as a direct result of the ideology extreme muslims follow.

in the UK - well extreme voices such as Katie Hopkins and Nigel garage have always been around. I grew up with NF marches in the my local high street and the associated violence from skinheads.

Like others have said, I hope right wing terrorism doesn't deepen and escalate that would be a nightmare. I hope the sttack on that mosque was a lone wolf.

"Bertrand This is a genuine question. Do you think that I and other pp on this thread who do not agree with JL's comments believe that the average Muslim in the street is responsible for ISIS terrorism? If you do, can you explain what I or other pp have said which gives you this impression?"

I don't know. I was asked what I thought. It is, however, interesting that any discussion about ISIS terrorism very quickly moves to the behaviour and beliefs of Muslims as a whole.

I don't know. I was asked what I thought. It is, however, interesting that any discussion about ISIS terrorism very quickly moves to the behaviour and beliefs of Muslims as a whole

Well I don't think that, and as far as I can recall no-one on this thread has suggested they think that.

I think the reason the discussion always moves on to the behaviour and beliefs of Muslims as a whole is that, as a society, we have failed to deal with the contradiction between some aspects of Islam and life in a 21st century secular liberal democracy. We have tried to ignore the problems these contradictions cause (eg Rochdale, Rotherham and now numerous other cities and towns were Muslim grooming gangs have been and presumably still are operating, FGM and radicalisation leading to terrorism) rather than acknowledging and facing these issues and the very difficult questions they raise so that we can deal with them.

This is not saying that any one problem is the fault or responsibility of all Muslims. It is acknowledging that there are problematic issues with Islam which need to be dealt with. I think seeing "Muslims" as a homogenous mass is really unhelpful. Many of these issues are hurting Muslims. Take FGM, the inaction on which I feel is a national shame. The victims of this are Muslim girls and women, and we, as a society are failing to protect them. We are turning a blind eye to hideous abuse which, if it happened in a non religeous/cultural context, we would use the full strength of the law to punish and to protect the child.

I have now seen the video posted by derxa which I presume is Josie Long's full unedited video. I have not seen PJW's video as I assume he is some sort of far right person posting on some weird internet only "news" site like Rebel Media or Infowars.

Overall I disagreed with what she said, even if you look at the number of Islamist vs Far Right attacks and number of people killed by each you are clearly more likely to be killed by Islamists. More Muslims have probably been killed by Islamists than by the Far Right in the UK, that I'm aware of. She is right about toxic masculinity however.

The difference between the Finsbury part attacker and the Manchester bomber and the Borough Market attackers is he does not seem to have been part of any sort of wider network and can be more accurately described as a lone wolf. Attributing the attack to mental illness in this case is actually similar to how the Leytonstone tube station attack was handled. Both crime were committed by men acting alone with histories of mental illness. Although both men also made statement's at the time of their crimes and in the case of the tube station attacker at his trial showing that there was a political dimension to their crimes.

I also disagree with her idea that the far right hold any great power in British society. Katie Hopkins was a rent a quote hack who has now lost her job, The Sun article was incorrect however the average British Muslim does hold views on women and homosexuality that are out of step with wider British society and that's before we go on to subjects like blasphemy and apostasy.

The truth is the British public have had mass immigration forced on them with out any sort of democratic consultation. Has there been a referendum on immigration nope, has any political party campaigned in an election calling for more immigration nope because they know they would lose. Whenever the British public are asked if they think there is too much immigration in opinion polls the overwhelming majority of people say yes.

Nigel Farage's referendum poster was the truth. That is the future of Europe. Hundred's of thousand's if not millions of people from countries and cultures very different to our own are entering Europe each year. That is a fact and our Europe's politicians are in denial about the idea that this will bring any sort of changes to the host societies. Everyone will just integrate nicely and become good European's of course they don't have to if they don't want to because that would be racist.

Article from the National Secular Society

Anti-Muslim hate must be challenged. Silencing criticism of Islam won’t help

Clearly there is no homogenous British Muslim community. There are Muslims who view their faith as compatible with human rights and secular liberal democracy. There are Muslims who view their faith as a theocratic edict. There are British Muslims working every day working to challenge bigotry, and there are British Muslims promoting sectarianism and intolerance.

But in the face of these findings, a certain degree of social anxiety and scepticism about Islam is understandable ­– even healthy, one might suggest. Civil society is right to call out anti-Muslim bigotry whenever it rears its ugly head, but if your response to anyone raising concerns about the influence of Islam in Britain is to simply point and shout "Islamophobia", then you're doing nothing to help the many British Muslims who are just as repulsed by this vile theocratic mindset as the rest of us.

And if the Government really plans to use the law to stamp out 'Islamophobia', then we have very serious problem. Ordinary people risk being criminalised because their views don't fit the Government's accepted interpretation of Islam or ideological straitjacket of 'British values'.

Showing a healthy lack of deference to religion is a modern British value. Secularism has long challenged religion's desire to control every aspect of people's lives. Secularism has dismantled religion's control over women's reproductive rights, its control of who can marry, who can have sex, who is permitted to sit Parliament, what we can or cannot say about religion.

In Britain, those battle have primarily been fought against Christianity. The growing presence of Islam in the West means many of these battles may need to be refought. Now is not the time to give up our own traditions of free speech and inquiry.

www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2017/06/anti-muslim-hate-must-be-challenged-silencing-criticism-of-islam-wont-help

Anyway its a lovely Sunday morning

"Whenever the British public are asked if they think there is too much immigration in opinion polls the overwhelming majority of people say yes." Partucularly, I understand, if they live in areas of particularly low immigration.........

I don't understand why people think criticism of Muslims or Islam is being silenced.

Or have moved away from area's with high levels immigration perhaps ?

And you haven't answered the point that British people as a whole don't want and never did want immigration on the scale we have witnessed in the last 50 years. That is a fact. If a government or government's keep forcing something on their population against their will at what point does it become a tyranny.

I am back. Possibly against my better judgement. Thanks to veryone who pointed out it isn't a dislike of Muslims per se but a dislike of religion and what it stands for.

The purpose in looking at the beliefs of Muslims is that they are shared beliefs with ISIS. Different sects have different beliefs therefore one has to be a little careful in ascribing one set of beliefs to an entire group but there are common core beliefs that: there is one god, Allah, and Mohammed is his messenger; Mohammed set an example for all men to follow; Islam is the final word of god and the message is inviolable and not for men to interpret.

If you don't believe that package then you are not Muslim, hence the shopkeeper in Scotland slain by a true believer was not a Muslim in the murders eyes.

If Mohammed set an example for all men to follow then we are in deep trouble if that moral standard is the one many of our fellow citizens aspire to. Fortunately they don't seek to trade slaves (Bukhara 34:351 and 41:598 - side note that all my references are sahih Hadith and therefore the highest, gold standard if you will, evidenced stories of Mohammed's behaviours so don't say they are not correct or misinterpret Islam. They are the root of the issue), have sex with slaves (Quran 33:50, 23:5-6 plus clear approval in Bukhari 59:637), have sex with girls under ten (Bukhari 62:65), carry out "eye for eye" punishments ( i.e. kill people by crushing their heads with stone in Bukhari 83:15 & others) except where killing an unbeliever where it doesn't apply (Bukhari 83:50) etc etc etc etc

None of the stories matter except they are part of the package of Islam. It is a mode of behaviour to be emulated according to the Quran (sura 33:21 if you fancy checking). Given the Quran is the unaltered word of god to be protected from corruption and change (Q 15:19 again if you want to check) you can see we have a major problem.

Either everything has to change in Islam, a reformation if you will, or things will get worse. And by worse I mean an erosion of the western liberal culture.

Reformation won't happen as the punishment for apostasy in Islam is, you guessed it, death. And not just any old plain death (Quran 4:89 and 3:85 as well as Bukhari 84:58, 52:260 and many more) but a nasty one if Bukhari 83:37 is to be followed.

So we have an even bigger issue than just reforming Islam. The reformation itself needs to come from a religion that says kill people who leave Islam, defined as not following the whole package. How the hell is that going to happen? Not by pretending there isn't an issue.

So we have got past the "ISIS are not Muslims" idiocy and end up with a core problem. As I said before I think it amazing that so many of my fellow citizens are brave enough to ignore the injunction not to take the unbelievers as friends (plenty of references if you want to check) and to stand up against the salafists but there is a need to do even more. The courage to stand up against a community where some kill people for wanting to marry someone from outside or even just being seen with a boy is not something I think I would possess to be honest.

Hopefully there is enough detail in this post for readers to see my argument on the core issue with Islam is grounded in fact and not some right wing proto fascist belief system. If you disagree, and you are perfectly entitled to, then please do not just contradict me but take issue with fact. (Aside - I remember the old Monty python sketch "argument" which reminds me of much so called debate nowadays except that instead of contradiction we get name calling like playground bullies)