London Fire: Grenfell Tower thread five

[RhythmAndStealth]

RIP

Five victims officially named
At least 79 victims expected, possibly more
Many displaced and struggling

To all those affected and all those helping

Thread four
Thread three
Thread three contains links to threads one and two.

One thing that worries me is that if they find the "single failure point", say the installation contractor, this will enable a one bad apple narrative to be constructed and become the true story when it appears that much more has gone on.

www.buzzfeed.com/saraspary/private-tower-block-owners-wont-be-forced-to-test-for?utm_term=.qbAWDgzVR#.ieowK4x6Y
Private Tower Block Owners Won't Be Forced To Test For Flammable Cladding
Councils and social housing landlords are testing hundreds of buildings for flammable cladding, but for private landlords that testing will be "voluntary".

That's general renters, students, shared ownership and private owners who are left with very little protection with this.

If they don't test though, they will be carrying a huge risk. Interesting to see how the insurance industry reacts.

One thing that worries me is that if they find the "single failure point", say the installation contractor, this will enable a one bad apple narrative to be constructed and become the true story when it appears that much more has gone on.

Who was responsible for the building as a whole? Why didn't they know who was living in the building - regardless of whether they were social housing tenants, private tenants or private rental tenants? (This includes sub-letting issues as a potential matter of safety and duty of care towards social housing tenants)

Its difficult to get away from this, so keep talking about it.

Interesting to see how the insurance industry reacts.

People might find themselves up shit creek getting cover for contents. Building insurance will probably be a fee on the leasehold in someway from the building owners which undoubtedly will be passed on to private owners and renters of all persuasions.

That's not going to be pretty, when that particular shit hits the fan.

Now confirmed that 7 tower blocks in four areas have the combustible cladding. Tests still ongoing for other blocks.

I think they include blocks in Plymouth. The New MP for Plymouth Sutton is returning to the city ASAP for a briefing on it

It is quite unbelievable how this type of cladding ended up on all these buildings and it has taken this disaster to happen before any of our authorities have taken any notice I work in a school and we can't even stand on a chair without a risk assessment being carried out!

And concerns by fire safety officials going back to 1999 regarding cladding were obviously not thought to be worth acting on.

I'm not actually that surprised. There's been a decades' long campaign by the right wing press against "health and safety" and Tory politicians have been talking over a similar time period about a war against red tape. With much of this being based on ignorance at best and misrepresentation at worst.

And yes, I know Labour have made similar comments, but the right have been frothing about this since the 1833 Factory Act.

nauticant: I worry that although there is now a big national focus on combustible cladding, and on fire safety in high rises the wider lessons may not be learned. Once this begins to slip off the news headlines, I worry that there will be a swift return to health and safety bashing, with serious concerns dismissed as "hysteria" or "doom mongering". So maybe the next disaster will not be a huge high rise fire, but something else. We shouldn't need a catastrophe to happen before we take the risks seriously.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/watch-grenfell-tower-mps-spine-10669031#ICID=sharebar_twitter

New Kensington MP Emma Dent Coad's maiden speech in the HoC today.

I have worked in three different industries where health and safety is an absolute priority. I'm actually astonished that councils are the ones lacking as, traditionally anything built by a council was better than private. Devastating to see the horrific loss of life by not prioritising safety. Just devastating. I'm shocked to be honest.

The industries I've worked in are
Oil and gas
Retail property
Civil engineering

It's beyond unthinkable to me that nobody in power noticed anything remiss. Not one engineer? Not one person?

The suggestion from the Camden statement is that the Fire resist not cladding was requested/ordered but the installers either ignored or didn't know the difference. It's either a failure on the part of inspectors DS/those signing off on the work or a deliberate act to save money on the part of the builder/installer.

"Fire resistant" not "Fire resist not"

I've also been involved in some public sector led, civil engineering projects user and I have a similar reaction. Even if the subcontractor is putting up the wrong specification cladding, as is being said to have happened in Camden - this should have been picked up. The only thing I can think is that cuts have lead to councils being deskilled as more work moves to the private sector, and that the money to fund inspections wasn't there. Because fire safety in a tower block is not an unforeseeable risk which no one could have predicted.

I wouldn't sleep if it was a project I worked on and in any way could have prevented it remotely.

When we sign off on H&S stuff, it's a lot of clouds in the sky really, but what it means in real terms thank God is that, if you've done your job right you'll never know. Or need to know the cost of not doing it.

I can't understand it either. Yes the latest from Camden is that the type used was not the fire resistant one. But if as it seems this is also the case elsewhere with different suppliers and authorities it has to be more than deliberately dishonest suppliers.

When we had building work on our home it seemed like so many rules and regs. Staircase height measured to within mm's and our builders were so careful with electrics etc. How can it be huge tower blocks were able to be refurbed so dangerously?

Like everyone I am astonished that building inspectors signed off on these renovations. Anyone who has ever been through even minor building work on their home will have experienced the several inspections and specifications of local council inspectors. I would have imagined that work on a building of this size would have been really scrutinised but it appears not.

Anyone who has ever been through even minor building work on their home will have experienced the several inspections and specifications of local council inspectors.
We had renovations done and the inspector just assumed everything was OK in the loft because he wasn't allowed to go up there to check due to 'health and safety'!

That's not my experience Cloud, they were here to inspect and sign off every stage. Maybe it depends on the council

'Because fire safety in a tower block is not an unforeseeable risk which no one could have predicted.'

Yes. And in this particular tower block the residents were desperately trying to bring some of the fire risks to the council's attention and being brushed off.

www.standard.co.uk/news/london/grenfell-woman-who-was-feared-dead-and-pictured-on-missing-posters-is-alive-after-rescue-from-18th-a3570996.html
Grenfell woman who was feared dead and pictured on missing posters is alive after rescue from 18th floor by fireman

Note this is someone who does not appear on the media lists but was reported missing by friends and has only just 'turned up' as far as they are concerned.

Some people are very ready to believe Hillsborough type rhetoric. Someone told me today that one of their customers kept saying the residents flatly refused to have sprinklers fitted.

So i made a firm point about the warnings the residents sounded about the fire. And how they were brushed aside and threatened.

On Channel 4 news tonight ...

Andy Slaughter....."i would hate for this to drop off the front pages"

Jon Snow "Well i can assure you it wont"