In the shadow of Grenfell Tower- thread four

[RhythmAndStealth]

Rest in Peace

Isaac Shawo, 5
Khadija Saye, 24
Mohammed Alhalaji, 23

At least thirty people confirmed to have died

Six further deceased victims provisionally identified

Many more people feared to have died. They have yet to be reunited with their names

Nineteen people still in hospital, with ten in critical care

Many people homeless and dispossessed

Many bereaved

Many traumatised

“…it is difficult to escape a very sombre national mood.” The Queen.

Three investigations launched- Fire, Police and Public Inquiry
£5m Government Emergency Fund created
£3m donated by public
Peaceful protesters demand justice and answers.

Thread three (includes links to threads one and two)

The number is 79 now

one minute silence

After world war two, working class families seized homes and hotels in that area because they had been bombed out. A squatters movement of families developed in the 1960s too, under Ron Bailey. I say do it again.

Hi all,

We're just moving this thread over to ITN.

Stuart Cundy is a man who inspires a lot of confidence. Like Dany Cotton. Both come across as really impressive people.

Got faith that he really does want to get answers.

Cheers Lorna

So many dead .

badbunny AFAIK ,but I don't know much ! ,requestioning not same as compulsary purchase .Think "borrowing" by gov ,not buying .
But no doubt the legalities of borrowing just as complex .

We can't see numbers and they aren't embossed. Fire gloves are too thick. We do however have to landmark where we are, to ensure we know where the door of entry is. We count steps and count floors. Count doors we check/search.

I really think our government and local ministers and officials could learn a lot about leadership and communication from Stuart Cundy and Danny Cotton.

Rock Melon-Fielder, I think that's his name, from RBKC was on the Vanessa Feltz radio show last week and he said that all residents would be rehoused within the borough. Even at that time I thought it was a big promise and I did wonder if he should have said such a thing if he couldn't deliver on it.

I'm surprised it's not been replayed. Then again, I'm not sure how much clout he has.

Sorry, auto correct, Dany.

Yes Deux was talking to a friend re Dany Cotton and we agreed we want her to be PM. Cundy can be Home Secretary

I have no idea about their political persuasions but they have shown leadership and have been authoritative and compassionate

The other thing, I think they've done a brilliant job of managing expectations too in the media and all without resorting to drama or silence.

I just think this talk of requisitioning housing is bizarre. How would it actually work, if they're not furnished who will furnish them. If they are - have they got to leave their furnishing?

Would it be an interim measure, what if when new accommodation is found the tenant wants to stay where they are etc etc. It's just a ludicrous thing to come up with which could have a far reaching, potentially negative, impact

While I agree that it will be very difficult in practice to requisition homes and property - although it is done in wartime. I do understand the anger given that the Independent reports that there are 1,399 empty homes in Kensington and Chelsea
www.independent.co.uk/voices/grenfell-tower-fire-deaths-homeless-kensington-and-chelsea-luxury-properties-empty-a7791671.html

Yeah, it's a nice symbolic idea for rich people to give up spare homes but it's not really a workable solution.

"1,399 empty homes in Kensington and Chelsea"

Many of which are not empty year round, and definitely not empty during Ramadan. In this case, "empty" refers to empty over six months, it does not necessarily mean the homes are continuously empty year round.

In which case, I wonder if it means that at any time, there are 1,399 empty homes

Making 2.798, each empty for six months each.

Or 1,764, each of them occupied for one day a year.

Maybe that's worse.

Whether it's practical or not, it's an utter disgrace to have homes sat empty on purpose in Kensington whilst saying to traumatised, homeless people they can easily commute in from Camden or wherever. I imagine nothing is easy for them at the moment.

I think it should be up to the residents as to what they want. If they want a fresh start in another part of the country or want to stay in Kensington should be their choice.

Can I ask a question? It's not meant to be an accusation, but I understand it might sound like that.

The advice regarding staying put is because the flats are (supposedly) self contained and should protect their residents for 60 minutes whilst they wait to be rescued? This is what I have understood from reports.

However, the fire started at 1am (or just before) but everyone hadn't been rescued by 2am (because it wasn't possible, I am certain the fire service did their best). Was it ever possible to rescue 400-600 people in one hour down a single staircase? If not, then the advice seems very wrong. If so, then what happened that made it impossible on Wednesday?

I realise that (potentially) the cladding caused the fire to spread and rapidly, but at 2am it had by no means engulfed the whole building - according to the media there was contact from the top floor well after this and calls to the emergency services after 2am were still being told to stay and wait rescue (and my heart goes out to those call operators- they weren't to know).

The fire service has say they stick by their wait to be rescued because it is too dangerous to have everyone leaving via one staircase. So surely we shouldn't house people in one staircase blocks??

The containment is supposed to contain the fire for one hour, giving the firefighters time to come and put it out. The other flats on different floors shouldn't need to be reduced.

In this case that didn't work because it had spread via the cladding.

By which time, they were telling people to stay put because the smoke was too thick to get through without passing out, so they needed firefighters to go in and get them.

Of course if they had known from the start the whole block was going to go up, then the correct advice would have been for everyone to evacuate straight away.

Reduced? Sorry, rescued.

According to some of the reports and eyewitness accounts, the fire service weren't notified about the fire until around half an hour after it started. I am unsure if they were aware at the time they were called the fire had been burning for half an hour already.

" So surely we shouldn't house people in one staircase blocks??"

No we shouldn't.

Thank you Sylvia. I hadn't realised that the one hour thing was to keep the fire in the flat where it started and not to keep it out of the other flats. Although it's more logical now I think about it.

I don't know what time the fire started. I thought fire fighters were on the scene from 1AM.

The firefighters account upthread describing firefighters who arrived at 1.20. The building already had lots of firefighters in it.

They were told to go up to the 23rd floor to get people. They got to the 19th floor and found people trying to escape. They had to bring them down, and they did not get them both down without one passing out, so we can assume the smoke was too thick for people to travel down from the very top without assistance by 1.30 am.

Monkey- according to the media, the fire service was called at 12.54 and the first engine arrived 6 minutes later (I think, so 1am). Are you saying the reports are that the fire started at 12.30ish? Why would someone wait for half an hour before calling the fire service? I'm not disbelieving you, just trying to get my head round it.

BurnTheBlackSuit

Residents first smelt the smell of burning plastic and electrics at 12.30am (a couple actually said earlier). First call to Fire Brigade was at 12.54am by the neighbour of the man who's fridge appliance had sparked.

Personally, I don't think the fridge was the cause of the fire. I think it was caused by a fire elsewhere in the building that caused an electricity surge.