Grenfell Tower fire- thread three

[RhythmAndStealth]

Seventeen tragic deaths confirmed so far, six victims provisionally identified.
Number of those who perished feared to rise into triple figures as search proceeds
Search for remaining victims expected to take weeks, sadly it’s considered unlikely that it will be possible to identify all the victims
Names of those still missing start to emerge
Nearly 80 victims being treated across six hospitals, with 15 still in critical care
Hundreds of people displaced and dispossessed, concerned about when and where they will be rehoused

Public inquiry ordered.
Criminal investigation launched.
Serious questions being asked about fire safety regulations, management of social housing, austerity and inequality.
Fire Brigade search of building expected to take weeks due to complexity of building, extent of fire damage and the necessity of undertaking a painstaking fingertip search.

“There must be arrests after this monstrous crime” David Lammy MP

‘Families rehoused last night been left clueless about where to spend next nights. No word from #kccouncil. Chaos.” Emily Maitlis, BBC

“We have to act as if it was our friends, our family in that block” Nick Hurd MP, Policing and Fire Minister

“Someone needs to be held accountable. These deaths could have been prevented.” Local resident to Sadiq Khan

Thread 2
Thread 1

Completion of building works is ultimately checked by lot of people and it is complicated. I can go in to a bit more detail if you want.

Under the fire safety order responsibility lies with the "responsible person" and that is defined in the legislation (for workplaces it is the employer, for everywhere else it is the person in control of the building, generally the owner). The fire service still inspect buildings and enforce the requirements of the fire safety order, but no longer issue safety certificates.

What baffles me is why a person wouldn't purchase (although often free) their own smoke detector?

I'm with you on that BUT I don't even think it would have made much difference in this case because the exit route was full of smoke.

There have been NYC firefighters interviewed that spoke of having equipment that can go up to the 70th floor. It's clear London did not have the right equipment to help people

As far as I know, the largest aerial appliance is the bronto skylift which I think goes up to 100 metres, so probably would reach somewhere near the top of Grenfell. Trouble is you'd never get the huge thing anywhere near. They can just about use it in the USA and other countries (Singapore I believe) because of the huge wide roads. Grenfell Tower was accessed via a narrow winding access lane, and the roads around it were also fairly narrow with tight corners etc. But anyway, assuming there was access, you'd have needed several of them to have any impact (2 per side) when the entire outside was engulfed and they'd have been unable to rescue people until the fires were out. So, even if they'd had a fleet of them, I don't see the outcome having been anything different.

Incidentally, the same lady raised a good point - why didn't they ring her bell from downstairs and tell her to get out.

I would be grateful if you did go into more detail Emily.

The lawyer from the previous case in Southwark was on tv with Kirsty Wark, and was saying that fire inspections carried out needed to now be scrutinised.

I think understanding what is going to happen in this inquiry (or inquest, which was what she was advocating for), is going to relate to understanding that regulation and inspection process.

This just came across my social media feed..

skwawkbox.org/2017/06/16/video-govt-puts-d-notice-gag-on-real-grenfell-death-toll-nationalsecurity/

If this is true..

I predict riots.

Sylvia, the tick box exercise referred to is likely to mean the fire risk assessment (which can be done by any competent person). This replaced fire certificates which used to be issued by the fire service.

Do you know when that change happened Emily?

Re. the statement made about the tenants possibly refusing a sprinkler system intallation.......I dont believe it it sounds like a way of trying to blame tenants.

But heres why a lot of tenants do refuse work.............a lot of HAs organisational skills are diabolical. Workmen not turning up when they are supposed to and/or turning up unannounced on the wrong day. Coming in and doing two hours work and then leaving. Should it really take nine months to refit a kitchen?

A tenant had to wait in 8 days on the trot for a gas safety check The contractors kept booking appointments but not turning up. These checks are mandatory so the tenant had to keep waiting in over and over again. If you complain the HA just keeps repeating that you would be in breach of the tenancy agreement if you refuse. Tenants ARENT refusing though They just want workmen/engineers to turn up when they are supposed to. And there is never a phone call to let tenants know workmen/engineers arent coming.

These problems are endemic across many HAs and are replicated and repeated every day.

So if you ever hear that a tenant has refused work there may well be a reason for it.

user149 because originally, their policy was to stay in the building. That should have been ok, because usually the flats are fireproofed and the fire cannot spread.

Unfortunately, that didn't happen in this case.

I doubt they is a d notice on the death toll. The media are reporting the missing figures.

I'm speculating Poe, but either the contractor didn't provide accurate FINISHED drawings (if things were remiss), or if accurate drawings were provided, the inspection company overlooked something that was remiss. That is of course, if something was remiss in terms of planning and compliance.

I'm putting finished in bold all the time as they are the drawings that count. You'll have planning drawings and then the finished drawings. PP will be approved based on those drawings, but if you do something slightly or indeed radically different that will (or should) be reflected in the finished drawings.

Fire inspections can still be carried out by the fire service and the fire service can (in extreme cases) prohibit a building from use. So basically, instead of saying "this is safe" to a lot of buildings, they now say "this is unsafe" to a few.

Through Kensington Council are trying not to mention the promise to re house everyone affected within the borough

This risk assessment vs fire certificate stuff all changed in 2006, when the fire safety order (2005) became law.

helena

All very true. Also, a Labour councillor from the area said earlier that she had been to all (bar one as I recall) meetings regarding the refurbishment of the block, and that no-one had ever even mentioned sprinklers, so she found it hard to believe that tenants had refused their installation. She basically said sprinklers had never even been an option or a consideration.

The D notice post is spreading quickly through on Social media.

There have been many complaints about these companies. Liberty Gas (i linked in a thread about them on Grenfell thread 1) Robert Heath Heating and Swale Heating.

(there is a claim in a comment on youtube that Robert Heath see tenants as "social housing scum") On a fb page set up by HA tenants who had experienced Robert Heath the wife/girlfriend of one of their engineers trolled the page with nasty comments.

Tenants have been left without hot water/heating for many many weeks in a lot of cases.

Emily, whether or not this building was inspected by the fire service, and at what points (before/after the fire resistant material between floors was or was not replaced) should be a focus of the inquiry.

Because if they haven't visited at key times, because it is no longer a requirement, that is surely a legislative issue rather than simply a local authority one?

I also read that housing association properties are exempt from houses in multiple occupation inspection rules. I was wondering what rules they do fall under.

www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/bromley/8380677.ORPINGTON__Tenants_take_hostage_in_kitchen_renovation_war/

I think this desire for an exact number is a result of our 24 hour news habit.

It is NORMAL to not know everything immediately. It's not as if people can't guess at what the figure might be.

Liberty Gas have shown incompetence many times. I put this on a previous thread but when i phoned Gas Safety to voice concerns they told me they couldnt do anything until SOMETHING HAPPENED.

I would not be surprised if the Grenfell residents were told similar .

Do you know when that change happened Emily?

Enacted in 2005 by parliament.

Sylvia, I have no doubt it will be. However, I should point out that in terms of buildings in current use (which is what I have been talking about so far) it is damn near impossible to check compartmentation. You can see if someone has drilled a hole in a wall or floor, but you cannot see if the wall itself was built properly.

Authorities need to start being more open or speculation will just fill the void.