Grenfell Tower tragedy continued

[RhythmAndStealth]

Twelve people confirmed dead with that number expected to rise significantly.

Many others injured and distressed. People have lost relatives, friends and their homes.

250 firefighters in attendance, risking their lives in an unprecented fire and it's aftermath. Other emergency services and NHS staff working hard to help survivors.

Many questions to be answered.

to all those affected and everyone helping.

Coral I agree and as a emergency service worker I'm well aware of the cuts. I'm just uncomfortable with the insinuation that the fire service attendance is being criticised.

Nick You and I are on the same page. The cuts are awful, but they don't seem to have impacted the response to this incident as far as I can tell.

Coral I would be incredibly surprised if London didn't have a high rise platform on its fleet but there could be several reasons for it being unavailable.

Nicknacky some of the firefighters in attendance yesterday had to work for far longer than is recommended, in dangerous and devastating conditions, because no relief was available.

This is against a background of 500 London firefighters jobs and 10 fire stations being cut in the last few years.

So, whilst it looks likely that additional resources wouldn't have meant they arrived any quicker and wouldn't have solved issues like difficulty accessing the site, dry risers not working etc, it's possible that numbers made a difference.

It's dangerous work, relying on critical decisions and timing- and being tired doesn't help with that. It also puts firefighters under enormous pressure. They attended what is likely to be the most harrowing fire of their lives, likely to have a traumatic effect on them. So having to work longer, go back in more often could compound those traumatic effects.

I think firefighters had to come from Kent later in the day.

Again, thank you to the firefighters for their superhuman bravery and amazing efforts.

helena despicable behaviour

This tragedy is awful

I don't think May will be here as PM next week

I think people are fed up of austerity cuts

I feel like taking to the streets to protest

I can not believe the tower block did not have sprinklers or proper fire prevention

Meanwhile in my area so many building go up - posh apartment blocks and shoddy social housing - I have had enough of the have and have nots being so disparate thanks to shocking government policy

Thank goodness Kensington have a decent MP now

Not being a council tenant, and not in UK either, could someone tell me if ALL social housing is now devolved to HA's. Does the Council have any involvement at all with tenants.Thanks. I don't understand the system.

Also where is boris - thank fuck he is no longer Mayor the self centred twat

Helena Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton Kempton) raised that tenants have lost trust with social housing providers over safety issues in the discussion about Grenfell today.

soda i dont know exactly how many but most are run by HAs now.

Lloyd Russell-Moyle actually made the point that he thought the only people who tenants will listen to and believe is the fire services; unsure if people will even trust them after this and the anger directed towards them (the discussion was in relation to what to do in the event of a fire in a tower block)

'Why are we discussing the lack of fire resources when I haven't seen or read anything that even said this was an issue yesterday?'

Because a poster is suggesting that we immediately increase the number of fire crews attending fires.

@HelenaDove.

Thanks. Someone upthread said the managers of such HA's are earning huge salaries. Privatisation and outsourcing seems to benefit the few not the many IYSWIM.

Rhythm I don't agree with the cuts at all and I am directly affected by them also. But out of that 500 that have been lost over the last few years I imagine it wouldn't have made much of a difference yesterday. When you take into account over the number of stations they are from, annual leave, rest days, sickness etc etc.

They will have done what the police do in major incidents and have called in mutual aid from elsewhere and that would have happened anyway regardless of cuts to numbers. So until we hear otherwise don't think it's helpful to speculate that lives may have been lost yesterday due to that

sylvia yes I know that's why we were discussing it, my question was why when there had been nothing to suggest it was an issue yesterday?

Soda, Helena I think many councils now devolve housing management to HAs, but not all.

For example, in Aberdeen most housing is directly managed by the council. It was proposed that it be transferred to an HA, but it was resisted on the basis of experiences elsewhere in Scotland e.g. Glasgow Housing Association. There are some Housing Assosciations in Aberdeen, but they build and manage their own properties.

Interesting that Aberdeen Council went out to check tower blocks yesterday and today, whilst GHA issued a statement of reassurance, stating that all building materials used were up to regulation. Which completely missed the fact that it's possible that the regulations aren't up to,scratch in themselves I.e. Non-inflammable insulation is allowed.

There weren't enough police to cover all policing work after the Manchester terror attack.

The army were called in.

And the police in Manchester were working 16 hour shifts.

I would love it if someone could clarify this; I feel London should have it's own high-rise platform if it doesn't already.

London has 11 aerial appliances, being 7 aerial ladder platforms and 4 turntable ladders, with 5 more kept as reserves.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Fire_Brigade_appliances#Aerial_appliances

No shortage of aerial appliances apparently, but only one could be used as seen in the various videos/pictures.

Nicky, I don't know.

I have no reason to believe the fire response could have been better or that they had a 'rabbit in the headlights' response.

One thing I was wondering, would there not have been the possibility to rescue people from higher floors via helicopter winches?

We have an HMO flat underneath ours. The noise from the slamming internal fire doors was intolerable and we complained about it until the LL adjusted the closing mechanisms. What most people do about annoying fire doors though is take the path of least resistance and just prop them open.

I think that's why fire alarms need to be mains operated and built in. Anything else is open to human error.

Because a poster is suggesting that we immediately increase the number of fire crews attending fires.

As a SHORT TERM measure until such buildings have been assessed, and only if crews/engines are available. How bloody difficult is it to understand. I'd rather another crew or two were mobilised on the initial 999 call if they're not engaged elsewhere, so otherwise would have been doing nothing. I'm really having trouble understanding why anyone would be against that at all. Would you prefer the engine to be sat in the station and the crew watching TV whereas instead they could at least be on their way to a call out, even if they turn out not to be needed???

clarrylove my understanding is that there was too much smoke to safely use helicopters. Aside from visibility issues it would have created a down draft and potentially made things worse for people in the building.

There is going to be a lot of work doing to regain tenants trust.

There is actually a phrase that HAs use when they feel a tenant is complaining too much. They call them "vexatious" complaints or refer to them as "vexatious" tenants. Id bet a penny to a pinch of shit that the residents of Grenfell Tower were referred to as this and that when FOI requests by lawyers are made for the paperwork and phone records of complaints made and issues raised, that it will be seen that the tenant management co/council have used the v. word in reference to Grenfell residents.

We've discussed all that Bunny. Nicky was asking why it was believed that not enough fire crews turn up early enough, I think.

Nickynacky

Sorry you have been affected by the cuts. I really am not implying that lives were lost, and I am sorry if I cam across that way.

I do think that having to work longer may have an affect on the firefighters involved. People who walk into burning buildings to save other people deserve to be treated with care and consideration for their own long-term health, safety and well-being.

Three of the stations closed were near to Grenfell, so there is a possibility that there would have been more personnel in that area.

[http://uk.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-faces-questions-over-fire-brigade-cuts-following-greenfell-fire-2017-6 Boris Johnston faces questions]