Grenfell Tower tragedy continued

[RhythmAndStealth]

Twelve people confirmed dead with that number expected to rise significantly.

Many others injured and distressed. People have lost relatives, friends and their homes.

250 firefighters in attendance, risking their lives in an unprecented fire and it's aftermath. Other emergency services and NHS staff working hard to help survivors.

Many questions to be answered.

to all those affected and everyone helping.

ExConstance Don't be ridiculous, the casualty figures are coming from the police and fire service so what agenda do they have to keep it quiet as long as possible? Truth be told, it's still early days. Not everyone who will be reported missing will actually be missing so why announce figures that won't be accurate.

It's not as simple as looking at voters role. There will be visitors, sub letting. People on holiday who don't realise they are reported as missing, people who have turned up but haven't notified the authorities etc.

I think it's better to wait until they have a clearer idea of how many casualties there are.

Who is going to get compensation from this? Are the landlords going to end up with a big payout for the loss of their block?

The Lackanal house shows compartmentalisation quite well with again the fire only spreading from the original flat via the exterior.

Although I take your point the reports we are talking about are completely different in scope. One was produced a month after a fire, with limited investigations and was considered potentially prejudicial so could not be disclosed, the other was following an inquest in which conclusions were reached which highlighted very serious shortcomings. They aren't comparable.

My point was that announcing a public inquiry doesn't demonstrate anything in May's part. It'll take years.

@TheWitchAndTrevor Have copied it below for you.

safeguards intended to prevent the spread of fire from floor to floor were temporarily removed from Grenfell Tower during a refurbishment, according to documents from the planning application.

A fire tore through the 24-storey Kensington tower block in the early hours of this morning, spreading quickly between floors. The cause of the fire and the cause of the spread are not yet known.

The 2016 refurbishment, which took place after the most recent fire risk assessment on the tower, included the installation of a new heating system in the tower. This required the replacement of the pipes in the floors.

To install the new pipes, the ‘fire stopping’ – systems used to seal openings and joints to prevent the spread of fire – had to be partially removed. The intention, according to a sustainability and energy statement authored by engineers from Max Fordham, was to replace the fire stopping once the new pipes had been installed.

Max Fordham did not respond to enquiries about the safeguards put in place to ensure that fire stopping was replaced properly.

According to information released by Kensington and Chelsea Council under the Freedom of Information Act, the most recent fire risk assessment on the tower was in December 2015, before this work took place.

The heating system in the tower uses pipework in the floor underneath every flat, and according to the sustainability and energy statement, engineers needed to replace all pipes to update the heating system, meaning that fire stopping was removed from every floor in the building.

These plans were approved by the council in 2014, when officers noted that the new heating system would “provide a significant improvement to the sustainability of the building”.

Rydon, the construction company which carried out the refurbishment, has issued the following statement: “We are shocked to hear of the devastating fire at Grenfell Tower and our immediate thoughts are with those that have been affected by the incident, their families, relatives and friends.

“Rydon completed a refurbishment of the building in the summer of 2016 for KCTMO [Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation] on behalf of the council, which met all required building control, fire regulation and health and safety standards. We will co-operate with the relevant authorities and emergency services and fully support their enquiries into the causes of this fire at the appropriate time.

“Given the ongoing nature of the incident and the tragic events overnight, it would be inappropriate for us to speculate or comment further at this stage.”

kirinm Agree scope was different, but changes should have been made as soon as they were raised in my eyes - we should expect to see changes being made today / tomorrow - they are at least checking fire alarm systems in similar tower blocks I believe to ensure they actually function.

We should expect change to be implemented quickly were there is loss of life.

The Titanic disaster was another example of a catalogue of errors. Yes it was the iceberg what done it, but :

If the water-tight bulkheads had been built all the way up to A deck instead of saving money and only having them halfway up the ship;

Or if the fire that raged in the coal store before sailing, weakening the hull of the ship, had been extinguished earlier;

Or if there had been enough lifeboats for everyone on board - the ship actually had more lifeboats than legally required, but the legislation was woefully out of date and didn't account for the enormous liners;

If they hadn't sailed at such a high speed into a known ice field.

Etc, etc

(I'm a bit of a Titanic nerd )

Thank you coral

Cavemum, I agree - it's always a chain of events.

I've been involved in some Human Factors & accident enquiry stuff over the years & it's always a perfect storm of failings of varying degrees linked at one moment to create a horrific outcome.

Link to Lakanal Coroner's Inquest Findings and Recommendations

A Public Inquiry is different to a Coroner's Inquest. In theory, it should have a much higher profile and be more difficult to ignore. It has a greater scope and more resources. We'll see.

I think this is an example of time when it's right to keep up interest, keep asking questions of elected representatives, everyone do what they can to help ensure the findings of the Public Inquiry can't be ignored.

This can't be allowed to just "go away".

Full article here: www.insidehousing.co.uk/business/asset-management/fire-safeguards-in-grenfell-were-temporarily-removed-during-refurbishment/7020464.article

I don't think that reporting the exact or estimated number of people that have died matters at the moment . The fact is that people have died and we can be pretty sure the number , whatever it is at the moment , will rise.

If mistakes and corner cutting have taken place then the death of even one person is horrendous.

I imagine (sorry this may be bad speculation) that the 17 confirmed dead are those that either jumped or fell, or those that succumbed to smoke in the stairwell. The number is small and will rise as it doesn't include any search of the apartments yet.
I don't think they are keeping it purposely low til some unspecified amount of time passes

Titanic and hillsborough are two similar examples, I'd also include aberfan in that. Low status people's concerns brushed under the carpet...

it's always a perfect storm of failings of varying degrees linked at one moment to create a horrific outcome

Charm that's such a good way of explaining the rationale behind Health & Safety practice. Which says that the way to prevent fatal accidents is to monitor for and prevent small, seemingly inconsequential, safety incidents. Because mistakes add up, get out of hand and join up with other mistakes in other areas to create a perfect storm.

Worth mentioning that IMHO factors such as

1. Flammable building cladding, possibly with no fire stops and/or
2. Alterations compromising compartmentalisation

are easy to identify in advance as having huge potential to cause critical failure and tragedy.

I think some of the apartments that were burnt out have been searched.

That was my thought too Beyondstrongandstable.

The figure that we have at present will be those who were found around the building or were found as they did a sweep for survivors rather than a search and recover.

Can't help but think of the 2 children who witnesses claim to have seen being thrown out the window by their Father, I do wonder if they survived the fall :(

The cause of the fire is being speculated upon elsewhere in the media. I don't think it matters really, as the evacuation/containment etc. of fires is the important thing.

Fire happens, it is the escape/response/safety aspect that matters IMO.

There are thousands of tower blocks across the UK. I hope the residents and relevant councils are checking fire drills/escapes as we speak. Must be very unnerving for residents of such blocks. Probably always was.

What a terrible tragedy.

@MelinaMercury A baby has survived being thrown out (I am unsure if this is one of the children you refer to). The baby has received broken bones and bruises, but was caught by a member of the public.

In events like this they don't give numbers who have died until they are certain that individuals are actually dead. They have a fair idea that there are many dead within the building but hey have to be certain. They don't just give figures based on numbers they believe might have perished. That would be false reporting. It has nothing at all to do with political agendas.

From the BBC Soda

Flats across UK to undergo safety reviews
Posted at 13:51

The fire in Grenfell Tower is leading local governments to carry out safety reviews on their own flats.

Councils in London are examining their tower blocks, including Redbridge Council in east London and Camden Council in north London.

Other cities across the country are following suit - Nottingham City Homes confirmed it is reviewing procedures at the tower blocks they run, East Kent Housing is examining its flats in Herne Bay and Whitstable, and high rises in Brighton could have sprinklers installed to prevent another tragedy.

Nicola Sturgeon also confirmed that a ministerial group will review regulations in Scotland following the blaze.

I also read that tower blocks in Aberdeen in Scotland underwent checks yesterday, continuing today and Edinburgh Council is carrying out checks this week.

Rhythm,

Thanks for that information.

Such a pity that it comes on the back of the Grenfell tragedy, but better late than never. People's lives could be at risk.

More details of high rise fire safety checks in Scotland Intersting to note that since 2005, all new high rises over 18m in Scotland have to have a sprinkler system installed. In England, it's 30m. But there's no requirement to retrofit to older buildings.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcparliament

Discussion happening now.

*Worth mentioning that IMHO factors such as

1. Flammable building cladding, possibly with no fire stops and/or
2. Alterations compromising compartmentalisation

are easy to identify in advance as having huge potential to cause critical failure and tragedy.*

Also easy to identify are inadequate access roads for emergency vehicles, and even the one narrow access road they had was "traffic calmed" and was reported to be regularly blocked with illegal parking, trades/delivery vehicles, and not to mention all those trees around the base of the tower which prevented fire engines, ladders & platforms, from getting a clear access to the tower etc. Just looking at the pictures it's blatantly clear lack of access was a massive factor with this.