Grenfell Tower

[RhythmAndStealth]

Watching the news just now and I can't believe my eyes. It looks absolutely horrific.

I want to think everyone got out safe, but sadly I just can't.

Some of the news reports are about alleged poor safety standards and dangerous living conditions. If that's true it just beggars belief.

One guy was just interviewed on BBC news saying it was his next-door neighbour (on the fourth floor) whose fridge had exploded. Whether this was the original fire or a subsequent one, caused by a power surge, who knows.

I would expect there to be a central fire alarm system in all the corridors that was super loud.

No, this is absolutely the wrong thing to do. If a communal area fire alarm goes off, the last thing you do is get everyone to rush to that communal area where the fire is. Thats why regs are as they are. Fire alarms are in each residential flat only, but fire should then be contained, giving enough time to evacuate, fire fight.

YY to this.

BBC has just interviewed a fire safety expert who said the very same. Each individual flat should have had moke alarms/fire alarm - not communal areas.

Eye witnesses said that the cladding caught fire and within 15-20 minutes the tower was engulfed up the side. So if that isn't flammable...I don't know what is.

Draylon I am an HA tenant. I know all about the contempt with which sub contractors treat tenants.

Tenants have been pressured to sign documents saying they are satisfied and that work has been completed before the job has even finished. HAs have millions in surplus. Its not always a lack of money.

This is awful. Absolutely terrifying. And if safety was compromised because of cost cutting then there will be so much anger.

Name changed for this

I used to work for the management company involved here and I think there are a number of conjunctures on this thread that should be clarified really. I have no knowledge of what has happened recently in the organisation or RBKC BUT:

• There is simply no way this is related to funding cuts. Money for fire safety compliance and remedial works Will always be available.

-The landlord doesn't have as many fire safety responsibilities as one may expect in blocks. This is because a lot of the things people think are effective in a fire are not, and therefore the H&S exec / insurers do not make them mandatory.

Now this was a very old building but new blocks, for example, are being built without hard wired fire alarms at all. It's about containment and rescue.

Sprinklers are not generally thought to be effective and not routinely recommended

Despite all the best measures that can be taken, blocks are always vulnerable to fire. There isn't so much that can be done, with all the money in the world, prevent and rescue from the 24th floor.

It's an ongoing risk and very heavily managed to reduce that risk. However It is generally excepted that it can't be eliminated due to the complexity and age of the block.

This is a terrible tragedy and I hope they get to the bottom of it very quickly. I feel very deeply for my ex colleagues who did a very good job.

I haven't read the full thread and I know there is another one running as well, but I just want to post a quick reassurance for those worried about the firefighters.

I just read a tweet by an architect, apparently this building is concrete frame not steel so the fire fighters should be fairly safe as the building isn't expected to fall in the same way as the twin towers.

My thoughts are with all those affected.

I saw that balence49.

It made me really sad, that survivors have to think ahead on how to navigate the housing system to ensure their family has secure accommodation even in such awful circumstances that have no doubt traumatised them all.

That man, his partner and two kids should be somewhere safe being looked after not standing around on the streets at their most desperate for fear of making their long term situation worse.

Political point scoring or not it's a fucking disgrace and shame on anyone who actively encourages the depletion of social security.

Imagine having to make the decision to throw your baby from the 9th floor in a desperate bid to save their life.

I'm not convinced this is the time for conjecture or for defending the management company either.

People died. Have some respect.

The Lochnessmonster's post above illustrate perfectly the point I was trying to make earlier.
PP are stating that the fire advice at the block was wrong, but in fact, according to experts it was correct.
We just don't know, and speculating from a position of ignorance is wrong and simply whips up hysteria.
I would also like to make a point about the warnings from the Residents' Association which are being referred to over and over on here.
Again, from my experience as a local reporter, it was almost a right of passage to be called out to social housing by residents who were convinced they were living in a 'death trap'. Causes I have heard included rubbish left by residents, bins not emptied because they were not taken out, a fridge more than a year old etc etc.
Although it makes harrowing reading with hindsight, websites such as these are very common and are not the most unbiased accounts of facts.

I'm not defending anyone

I can't believe I've only just seen this ... what an utter horror, and I guess everyone's thoughts can only go out to all those affected

Hard to understand how the entire block torched like this given today's (supposed) safety standards, but then I don't pretend to know much about accelerants, etc. No doubt those who do will be looking for answers even as we type ...

Each individual flat should have had moke alarms/fire alarm - not communal areas.

What use is that when the fire is on a lower floor and the smoke doesn't reach the higher floors (thus setting off individual alarms) long after the escape routes have become blocked?????

Surely, if the fire is below you, you need the earliest warning possible so you can get out before it spreads and blocks the exits???

Imagine having to make the decision to throw your baby from the 9th floor in a desperate bid to save their life

That's what I've been thinking

Keep them with you and know they will die or throw them and hope the survive. Not a choice any parent should have to make

What use is that when the fire is on a lower floor and the smoke doesn't reach the higher floors (thus setting off individual alarms) long after the escape routes have become blocked????*

You get out of your flat, you smash the glass on the communal fire alarm system - alarm goes off building wide - everyone is aware. It's really important to have fire and smoke detectors in individual flats as it gives people time to get out, or use an extinguisher / blanket.

Horrific pics on the mirror of a body covered up in the undamaged basement area of the building.

"I'm not convinced this is the time for conjecture or for defending the management company either.
People died. Have some respect."

This^^

By the time the smoke was in anybody's flat the exit probably wasn't safe to travel down.

"-The landlord doesn't have as many fire safety responsibilities as one may expect in blocks"

So will only do the minimum that is required THIS is part of the problem.

Advice for residents over a certain level of block height (last I recall it was 6 floors) is not to attempt to escape at all, but contain and await rescue.

as I said above, communal fire alarms aren't a legal requirement. Modern buildings are less likely to have them.

No Helena they take their advice from those who know better than them- the fire brigade, health and safety executive and their insurers

Not their residents, who are highly unlikely to be fire experts

@Changedenomnom thanks for that, really interesting.

Just horrific.

This was posted by the Grenfell Action Group in November last year.

"It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders".
grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

So often it's the case that only a catrosophic incident will change things.

I can't imagine the terror felt by those people.

This is truly the most awful thing to see. My heart goes out to all of those involved, how horrific and devastating.

Honestly, shame on the people who are criticising the residents who feared for their safety and made public their fears and warning.

Look at that fucking building In inferno in a matter of minutes and tell me they were scaremongering cathf.