Britain's new cultural divide is not between Christian and Muslim, Hindu and Jew. It is between those who have faith and those who do not.

[bossykate]

fascinating article in today's guardian.

here

I found this VERY interesting too bossykate.

And I was largely in agreement with lots of the comments.

Totally agree with Dawkins being put in the same bracket as bonkers fundamentalists.

wassup? Atheists and believers fighting again?

Only in the fundamentalist corner

In the Reasonable Liberal corner we are all drinking tea and commenting thoughtfully on matters of social justice

Can I join you?

I'm in MP's Reasonable Liberal Corner too. I feel very depressed about bonkers fundamentalists at the moment

oh I'm in that corner too. Hate fundamentalism of all types. MP - can I have milk no sugar please? Marina, thanks for your answer to my little survey yesterday, I showed your response to dh (who is very depressed about things atm, specifically the whole traditional/contemporary thing) and he said he entirely agreed with what you'd written, and we both decided we love you!

didn't read the article, but I fancy the idea of a reasonable liberal corner. can I join?

Interesting-ish article: though up comes that same old idiocy that you "can't be sure there isn't a god". You can't be sure that there isn't a 50ft high pink jellyfish sitting outside your front door every time you're not looking either, but the burden of proof is on the one who claims there is a pink jellyfish out there.
As to Dawkins, he might not be a diplomat, but most of the people who disagree with him in print are batting for the credulous team, who perhaps could be called the "reasonably-liberal-until-anyone-says-MY-faith-is-just-as-much-a-crock-of-crap-as-the-rest" team. When it comes to public life, the way I see it is you either privelege all religons equally (including Jedis, Satanists and followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster) or you treat the whole lot as equally people's private business and treat everyone (superstitious or rational) the same way.

Madamez I'm sorry, but no tambourines allowed in here. Can you take it down the corridor where they are having their Revival Meeting?

Who would like some Fair Trade coffee?

I'm with franca70 on this one. Presumably one can believe in God and be a Reasonably Liberal at the same time?

Reasonably? duh!

oh I'm with madmamez - but no tambourine and I drink fairtrade coffee - what are you going to do with me?

You are quite welcome to stay in our Nice Liberal Corner but there is to be no disparaging of points of view, no crude arguments involving fairies of spaghetti monsters and no disrespecting of choices of facial hair.

Fairtrade biscotti anyone?

oh no, I'm getting confused. I'm a bit of an atheist, but fancy the liberal corner, is it ok? can I have an espresso?

where do I belong?? help!

perhaps I should read the article

Yes, Dawkins is exactly like a tube bomber, isn't he? Colin Slee is an idiot, and an offensive one too. Since when did Richard Dawkins start blowing the legs off commuters or ripping their heads off? That ridiculous and abusive comparison totally destroys the entire argument IMO.

Hmmm..well I am a firm but v. tolerant christian, (so I'm probbaly not allowed in the liberals' corner? ) and I like living in a mulit-cultual, multi-faith society - I think it's just so much mnore interesting than a monoculture. Anyway the thing I find again and again is that I have much more in common with, say, obeservant Jews and Muslims and whatever else than I do with white Brits of no faith and no interest in spiritual things.

Soryr if that offends anyone, and as i say I do undrestand that as a christian I am in the distinct minority in the UK so I don't expect everyone else to agree with my faith.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that trying to live in a religion givs you something in common with others also trying t liive in a religion (albeit a different one).

So from that POV I can kind of agree with the headline at least - and I don't think it just applies to the fundamentalists. (Altho maybe some christians/muslims/jews/whoever might be offended by the idea that we have much more in common than we have not).

Rosylea, I'm just not sure about that one at all.While I can sort of appreciate that you might feel you have more in common with the well-meaning and tolerant believers in gods, do you really feel that you have more in common with book-burning, gay-bashing, bomber-justifying nutters who happen to believe in gods, than with well-meaning, tolerant, non-violent people who don't believe in gods?

Eh???!!!

No no no!!! I don't align myself with bogots of any descrption, whether religious or not. I'm talking about the middle-of-the-road nice, easy-going christian having a lot more in common with the middle-of-the-road muslim/jew etc than most people would give creit for.

And may I add (whispers) I tend to find that the religious extremists are much more likely to be male. Women find a way of bonding and establishing common ground across racial / faith divides. Of course there are many exceptions...

Agree with Aloha, likening Dawkins to the tube bombers is ludicrous. Dawkins is passionate about atheism and the lack of any robust evidence for the existence of God. He's not an effing terrorist. But he is someone who challenges religion and clearly some religious people prefer to attack him with hyperbole rather than have a reasonable argument.

I think it is worrying that religious leaders or self-appointed representatives have privileged access to political power - the government always seems to be consulting 'faith' leaders or 'community representatives'. What about the huge numbers of people who don't have a faith?

Agree that the increasing activism shown by religious representatives is putting rationality and the heritage of the Enlightenment at risk. It's ludicrous that you have millionaires getting access to schoolchildren to promote their ludicrous views, for instance.

Actually this political fight between religions and by religions against secularists is pushing me in the direction of actually getting involved in the CofE - at least the CofE has traditionally been anti-fire and brimstone and in favour of people having access to the evidence for themselves so they can make their own minds up, right back to translating the Bible into English. Now it's under attack from the extreme Evangelicals who use homosexuality as a cause to try to break up the CofE and turn it into their own discriminatory private members club. I feel like rejoining just to shore up that tradition of people being able to think for themselves. We need a moderate, not-too-excitable religion in this country at the moment.

Rosylea: I kind of think that nice, easy going, middle of the road people have more in common with each other, how ever many gods they do or don't beleive in, than extremists or anti-social peole of any kind.

I know what you mean about male extremists, though. There is an argument I've heard (but don't entirely agree with) that, because men don't give birth, they're both envious of and afraid of women so all these male-dominated religions are an attempt to make up for the fact that men can't themselves, give birth. Hence the long history of religiously-motiviated male violence against women.

The pink jellyfish argument is entirely reasonable. Similarly, I can't be absolutely sure there isn't a dragon at the bottom of my garden right now (can't see the garden from my office) but I'm pretty certain there isn't one.

And I think the appearance of one robust intellectual atheist is hardly a threat to society, unlike, say, the appearance of a radical Saudi form of Islam, fiercely opposed to democracy, equality between the sexes, homosexuality, that wishes to impose its medieval values on the rest of society.

Hmm Madamez..interesting! You're right, I wuould feel much more comfortable with a rational sane non-christian than with a murderous bonkers fundamentlist christian. I personally would have nothing to do with any sort of religion that seeks to dominate people...Jesus said "The truth will set you free" and IMO that's what real faith is about, bringing freedom. You don't agree in all probability!

Altho having said that I am v. much 'in the system' as a member of the CofE which has many faults. I am so well aware of its faults and accept them just as I accept the faults of members of my family. (And I love the church just as much as I love my family too). And yes the church has been frighteningly and depressingly sexist - that's why I believe that women priests are so vitally important right now. (Soapbox alert!)

I'm rambling now! Too much wine after my ds's birthday tea!!!!