Was Cameron right to reject calls to open borders?

[StorminaBcup]

Before I say anything else, I have not started this thread to be goady, xenophobic, racist, intolerant although I suspect I am ignorant of what are perhaps finer details.

In view of the events in Paris, Brussels, Nice and now Munich, (and suggestions that some of the attackers had entered the countries as refugees / migrants ); was Merkel right to open Germany's borders or was Cameron right to resist the pressure to do the same?

I'm torn. On the one hand it's a humanitarian catastrophe, something should have been done sooner and to deny help to thousands of refugees is unthinkable. But, I'm now wondering if those countries who were insistent on papers (but were accused of bottle-necking the process by stopping trains) were actually right too. I realise a paper-documenting exercise is also futile in a lot of situations so I'm not even sure that would've helped.

I know these things are never black and white but I've read some really interesting discussions on here so I'm curious to see what others think.

[Charlieismydarlin]

I am not sure if this is a stupid question but why is there a camp in Calais? Surely asylum should be claimed in France?

Why are children left in the camp?

We are unable to accept economic migrants. It's not possible to solve the world's problems this way.

[unlucky83]

fruit if it was my 8 yo relative - cousin/nephew - even my child I would prefer them to be in care in France rather than hanging around the lawless Calais Jungle or risking their life trying to sneak across the channel. Basically I would want them safe before anything. Then I could work on reuniting with them - even if it meant me moving to France (if possible).
I've been though all this before on previous threads but basically there was a story about volunteers giving children their mobile phone numbers and discouraging rather than encouraging them to get on a bus organised by the French Social services ...more likely to make them scared about what was going to happen to them.
Also there are stories of 'children' - older teens - from the Calais jungle not wanting to go to children's homes and running away - the homes were too far away from the border. And to an extent these children will be like the ones in Stockholm station - stealing and shouting abuse etc. They have places in hostels but run away -they prefer living rough on the station, don't like rules.
I know of two similar cases of younger British children (10 and 11) having to be put in foster care in the UK and hating it and running away. Because they were not used to being looked - having boundaries - rules like times to be home, not smoking weed in the house etc... god knows how hard it will be for these children from Calais to settle.
If we take everyone from Calais in 6 months it will be full again -in fact there will be even more people there - it would be like 'doing a Merkel' encouraging people to risk their lives and making people smugglers rich.
If we take all the unaccompanied children we are encouraging people to keep sending their children ahead to get a foot in the door...
Cameron absolutely did the right thing supporting the camps in surrounding countries.

[FruitCider]

I am not sure if this is a stupid question but why is there a camp in Calais? Surely asylum should be claimed in France?

Most of the people in Calais have claimed asylum in France. However it can take years for France to process the application, and the French government does not offer housing or financial assistance whilst a claim is being processed.

[FruitCider]

I've been though all this before on previous threads but basically there was a story about volunteers giving children their mobile phone numbers and discouraging rather than encouraging them to get on a bus organised by the French Social services ...more likely to make them scared about what was going to happen to them.

Where have you got this story from? I've never known any such thing. I have however known lawyers go to the camp and help children claim asylum in France.

[FruitCider]

Because you clearly have no idea how ss work they don't just had over children to relatives because they are related you first have to do an assment hence the work

I would have never have guessed that in a millions years...

[FruitCider]

But we can afford thousands of refugees
Can't have it both ways

The government is currently sat on £30 billion raised from NI contributions. They are refusing to spend it. Also we can afford trident? Why are weapons more affordable than human lives?

[FruitCider]

we take everyone from Calais in 6 months it will be full again -in fact there will be even more people there -

Closing down the southern part of the camp had similar effects. It didn't deter people, they are still fleeing for their lives so will keep coming.

[branofthemist]

Is our right to remain "safe and secure" more important than refugee's rights to seek safety and security?

I never get this argument. If we open the boarders and let everyone in, eventually, we won't be able to take anymore. More and more will come with nowhere to go.

We won't be a place that can offer anyone help.

Encouraging people to make that crossing is morally wrong in my opinion.

[FruitCider]

Who has said to open the borders? I certainly haven't.

Leaving the EU might actually move the Calais camp to Dover, just to warn you.. The French are planning to stop border control control at Calais.

[neonrainbow]

Fruitcider what do you think should happen with the migrants at calais?

[FruitCider]

Which ones? The majority who have claimed asylum in France? Or the small minority who are trying to get to the uk?

[neonrainbow]

The ones at calais trying to get to the uk. Sorry i thought my question was clear enough.

[FruitCider]

Not really, you made the assumption that they are all trying to enter the uk.

As I said earlier in the thread I think there should be a globalised asylum seeker system where people can apply for asylum at any time from any country. Anyone that is successful should either be reunified with family if possible or sent to safe countries around the world through a quota system.

[DoinItFine]

Who would administer this unified asylum system in such a way that it would be faster and more responsive than what we have?

Also, why should people with emigrant familes get first divs on the most desirable countries in which to seek asylum?

[neonrainbow]

But that's never going to happen. So what do you think it the solution for the jungle? The one at calais that houses the migrants trying to get to the uk, that is. Just to be clear.

[FruitCider]

Because emotional support is important? Isn't that obvious?

There are many many organisations or NGOs that could facilitate such a system. Government officials would need to process applications though.

The problem is, the current system isn't working. It's forcing people on to boats.

To be honest I hadn't really given it much thought until last year when I saw this video.

There shouldn't be a need for NGOs to literally pluck people out of the sea.

[FruitCider]

The one at calais that houses the migrants trying to get to the uk, that is. Just to be clear.

Only animals live in the jungle.

As I have said the majority of people in that camp are waiting on asylum claims in France. It's only a small number who are trying to get to the UK.

[DoinItFine]

Because emotional support is important? Isn't that obvious?



Well by that argument, we should abolish the entire system so that people can stay with their families.

You seem terribly keen on a system massively open to gaming and corruption and that only serves the wealthy and middle classes to be wealthy and middle class elsewhere

There are many many organisations or NGOs that could facilitate such a system

Which ones?

Large enough to administer a worldwide asylum system?

With full agreement and co-operation from all countries?

Really? Who has the capacity and the authority to implement a system like that?

UNHCR would seem the most likely organisation. Why aren't they already doing it, if it's feasible?

[FruitCider]

UNHCR would seem the most likely organisation. Why aren't they already doing it, if it's feasible?

I don't know, I don't work for the UNHCR!

Why would it help the wealthy if people can claim asylum from their country of origin, or any other country for that matter?

[DoinItFine]

Yes, I know if I came to France from Syria to claim asylum I would immediately make my way to a port town in the north west of the country.

[DoinItFine]

Why would it help the wealthy if people can claim asylum from their country of origin, or any other country for that matter?

It would massively help the wealthy and well-connected to be able to choose the plum locations for resettlement based on family already there.

Also, you don't have to work for UNHCR to venture a guess as to why the system they administer doesn't have buy in to be in charge of all asylum claims worldwide.

[FruitCider]

Wouldn't it make sense to live with large numbers in relative safety than on your own at the side of the road? At least the camp has the attention of NGOs, people are fed, MSF have installed a few cold water taps and portoloos. Why wouldn't you want to go to a place that already has facilities?

[blaeberry]

Wouldn't having the ability (and money for bribes) to put in an asylum claim in your home country where you can sit around happily for many months while the claim is processed rather put the lie to the need for you to claim asylum in the first place?

[DoinItFine]

Wouldn't it make sense to live with large numbers in relative safety than on your own at the side of the road?

Yes, that's France.

One giant camp in Calais and then just roads to live on the side of.

Awful place.

Seriously?

If Calais is so great, then what is the problem?

If it is just a massive coincidence that it happens to be in a port town with direct access to the UK, then presumably your talk of it moving to Dover is just bullshit.

[unlucky83]

fruit so you really believe most of the migrants in Calais are fleeing for their lives? There are no economic migrants? If you do I think you are deluded.
www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33986899

(I like this bloke -I think he would be an asset to any country -but he was not fleeing for his life.)
I can't find the link to the people giving the children phone numbers - most likely I would have posted it on one of the 9 cologne sex attacks threads (so 9000 posts) .
I didn't think anyone was in denial that certain groups (eg No Borders) are using the migrants to further their political ends. I think those people are despicable.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/no-borders-calais-violence-stirred-up-by-british-anarchists-say-french-politicians-a6832076.html
You can include in that the ones who encouraged the migrants in Idomeni to cross the swollen river so 4 died for nothing - having distributed a map of how they got get through the border.
And I am dubious that most of the people in the Jungle have claimed asylum in France and are waiting for their claim to be processed. Do you have evidence for that?
MSF say 82% are trying to get to the UK
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/calais-crisis-first-ever-quantitative-survey-in-the-jungle-reveals-thousands-of-refugees-still-a7041541.html
See what the guy says about the new containers in this www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35322374
or what Liz Clegg says to Jamal -a 12 yr old who eventually nearly died in a lorry.
www.helprefugees.org.uk/2016/02/24/watch-liz-from-the-calais-women-and-childrens-centre-read-her-letter-to-jamil/
(That is Liz Clegg of the unofficial Calais women and children's centre.)

Finally I don't think moving the border to the UK will get rid of the Jungle and I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing.
People are there waiting in the Jungle to sneak into the UK (why they don't want to be relocated away from the border) - they can't wait in the channel to sneak past border control. They can't turn up at passport control without being detained. At least if they get caught in the UK we can detain them in say an old army camp, process and return the ones without a failed claim asap. Unlike the French police who pick them up and drop them off a few miles away so they can move back to the jungle and try again.