Was Cameron right to reject calls to open borders?

[StorminaBcup]

Before I say anything else, I have not started this thread to be goady, xenophobic, racist, intolerant although I suspect I am ignorant of what are perhaps finer details.

In view of the events in Paris, Brussels, Nice and now Munich, (and suggestions that some of the attackers had entered the countries as refugees / migrants ); was Merkel right to open Germany's borders or was Cameron right to resist the pressure to do the same?

I'm torn. On the one hand it's a humanitarian catastrophe, something should have been done sooner and to deny help to thousands of refugees is unthinkable. But, I'm now wondering if those countries who were insistent on papers (but were accused of bottle-necking the process by stopping trains) were actually right too. I realise a paper-documenting exercise is also futile in a lot of situations so I'm not even sure that would've helped.

I know these things are never black and white but I've read some really interesting discussions on here so I'm curious to see what others think.

[BungoWomble]

...and so they turn up on Europe's doorsteps instead and get annoyed with us? And the UN complains Europe isn't doing enough? How much responsibility do we really have here?

[scaryteacher]

Professor; not all ME countries will take the migrants/refugees...Qatar and Kuwait won't afaik. Jordan is doing its best by housing the camps.

[ProfessorPreciseaBug]

The elephant in the room is that everyone is trying to get into Europe. There is lots of room in places like Saudi Arabia and other arab countries. Given the advantqge of a similar culture and common language, it would seem better for people fleeing war in Syria to go to another middle east country..

[BungoWomble]

oops, didn't check the date!

[BungoWomble]

we simply cannot solve the problems of the world though and accept everyone.

YY to that. We cannot house all the people of the world in Europe, and not in Britain. We're already one of the most densely populated countries in the world. Add to that the fact that these people are coming from a completely different culture which regularly conflicts with our own - think sharia courts v the equality act.

It is a very complicated issue. I did not agree with western actions in the middle east which have destabilised the region, and I do not agree with the western complacency around climate change which will further destabilise everywhere. I do not agree too with other political choices in the west which favour the growth of inequality. While I respect those who want to help others, the first requirement of any society is that it looks after its own. Perhaps if our richer classes were more willing to help our own poorer people (including children) and less likely to label them as shirkers and strivers who have only themselves to blame for all of their dismissed and minimised problems, they would find more cross-country support. It's not as simple as saying 'won't someone think of the children'.

[neonrainbow]

So can i surmise you dont have any solutions for the jungle that houses migrants who are trying to get to the uk then fruitcider? Apart from snarky comments because i didn't adhere to your brand of political correctness and i called it the jungle. Which is what its commonly known as.

I think it's absolutely right that the uk takes genuine refugees from camps and doesnt just let in migrants who pitch up in calais and make dangerous, illegal and disruptive attempts to get to a country they have no legal right to be in.

[Charlieismydarlin]

fruit we simply cannot solve the problems of the world though and accept everyone. Don't you get that? There could be millions.

Genuine refugees - yes.

Economic migrants? I appreciate why people want to come to the EU but it's not possible. The EU is in a state of collapse as it is.

[FruitCider]

Hmmm... I sometimes give migrants my number. I wouldn't be packing any bags for them though! It's more like "oh, you are getting on a boat tonight? Here's my number, let me know if you make it to Europe". Or "let me know if you make it to uk". I don't encourage any movement, only support those that migrate. Does that make sense? It's not my place to make legal or moral judgements on their action.

[StorminaBcup]

Am I also right in thinking that those granted asylum as a child have to reapply when they reach 18?

[StorminaBcup]

If the Calais camp moves to British shores then surely this just frees up more space in Calais and will encourage more assylum seekers to try to gain access to the UK? Our immigration process is so convuluted that it leaves the risk of overcrowding in our detention centres too. Conditions here aren't exactly cushty either.

Do you think if the camp did move it would also serve to motivate those to try enter the UK in containers / through the chunnel / more recently by boats?

I still think we need to address the issue at source.

[unlucky83]

fruit I think Liz is irresponsible - instead of packing Jamal a bag etc she should have been encouraging him to go to the French authorities. She had given him her mobile phone number - he'd have suffocated without it - but then he shouldn't have been in the lorry in the first place.
I posted a link to her cos she is on the migrants 'side' -can't be accused of being anti-migrant. I don't think she is no borders - but I do think she is misguided - not actually helping.
The 'nicer' you make the jungle the more you encourage people to risk their life to get there ... the more people die trying to get there.
BTW the Algerian article is a BBC crossing continents report - not usually right wing, quite factual - in fact I vaguely knew Lucy Ash years ago and then she was a liberal leftie - suspect probably still is....

[FruitCider]

Unlucky it's very ironic that you have posted a link about Liz. If I need her views I can ask her next time I see her. Thanks all the same!

[FruitCider]

I haven't yet seen an Algerian in Calais, I have to say! Seems like sensationalist right wing reporting to me. I'll upload the results of the latest audit of the camp after my nap.

[StorminaBcup]

I've been doing a little more reading the asylum seekers (I'm using this term because not all of the people there are a mix of refugees / migrants) in Calais based on some the comments here and the majority of the articles have said that those within the camps are seeking UK asylum. This is one article (I've used this one because it's not a newspaper in an attempt to limit any political bias although I'm aware this is impossible with any media).

[unlucky83]

fruit so you really believe most of the migrants in Calais are fleeing for their lives? There are no economic migrants? If you do I think you are deluded.
www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33986899

(I like this bloke -I think he would be an asset to any country -but he was not fleeing for his life.)
I can't find the link to the people giving the children phone numbers - most likely I would have posted it on one of the 9 cologne sex attacks threads (so 9000 posts) .
I didn't think anyone was in denial that certain groups (eg No Borders) are using the migrants to further their political ends. I think those people are despicable.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/no-borders-calais-violence-stirred-up-by-british-anarchists-say-french-politicians-a6832076.html
You can include in that the ones who encouraged the migrants in Idomeni to cross the swollen river so 4 died for nothing - having distributed a map of how they got get through the border.
And I am dubious that most of the people in the Jungle have claimed asylum in France and are waiting for their claim to be processed. Do you have evidence for that?
MSF say 82% are trying to get to the UK
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/calais-crisis-first-ever-quantitative-survey-in-the-jungle-reveals-thousands-of-refugees-still-a7041541.html
See what the guy says about the new containers in this www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35322374
or what Liz Clegg says to Jamal -a 12 yr old who eventually nearly died in a lorry.
www.helprefugees.org.uk/2016/02/24/watch-liz-from-the-calais-women-and-childrens-centre-read-her-letter-to-jamil/
(That is Liz Clegg of the unofficial Calais women and children's centre.)

Finally I don't think moving the border to the UK will get rid of the Jungle and I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing.
People are there waiting in the Jungle to sneak into the UK (why they don't want to be relocated away from the border) - they can't wait in the channel to sneak past border control. They can't turn up at passport control without being detained. At least if they get caught in the UK we can detain them in say an old army camp, process and return the ones without a failed claim asap. Unlike the French police who pick them up and drop them off a few miles away so they can move back to the jungle and try again.

[DoinItFine]

Wouldn't it make sense to live with large numbers in relative safety than on your own at the side of the road?

Yes, that's France.

One giant camp in Calais and then just roads to live on the side of.

Awful place.

Seriously?

If Calais is so great, then what is the problem?

If it is just a massive coincidence that it happens to be in a port town with direct access to the UK, then presumably your talk of it moving to Dover is just bullshit.

[blaeberry]

Wouldn't having the ability (and money for bribes) to put in an asylum claim in your home country where you can sit around happily for many months while the claim is processed rather put the lie to the need for you to claim asylum in the first place?

[FruitCider]

Wouldn't it make sense to live with large numbers in relative safety than on your own at the side of the road? At least the camp has the attention of NGOs, people are fed, MSF have installed a few cold water taps and portoloos. Why wouldn't you want to go to a place that already has facilities?

[DoinItFine]

Why would it help the wealthy if people can claim asylum from their country of origin, or any other country for that matter?

It would massively help the wealthy and well-connected to be able to choose the plum locations for resettlement based on family already there.

Also, you don't have to work for UNHCR to venture a guess as to why the system they administer doesn't have buy in to be in charge of all asylum claims worldwide.

[DoinItFine]

Yes, I know if I came to France from Syria to claim asylum I would immediately make my way to a port town in the north west of the country.

[FruitCider]

UNHCR would seem the most likely organisation. Why aren't they already doing it, if it's feasible?

I don't know, I don't work for the UNHCR!

Why would it help the wealthy if people can claim asylum from their country of origin, or any other country for that matter?

[DoinItFine]

Because emotional support is important? Isn't that obvious?



Well by that argument, we should abolish the entire system so that people can stay with their families.

You seem terribly keen on a system massively open to gaming and corruption and that only serves the wealthy and middle classes to be wealthy and middle class elsewhere

There are many many organisations or NGOs that could facilitate such a system

Which ones?

Large enough to administer a worldwide asylum system?

With full agreement and co-operation from all countries?

Really? Who has the capacity and the authority to implement a system like that?

UNHCR would seem the most likely organisation. Why aren't they already doing it, if it's feasible?

[FruitCider]

The one at calais that houses the migrants trying to get to the uk, that is. Just to be clear.

Only animals live in the jungle.

As I have said the majority of people in that camp are waiting on asylum claims in France. It's only a small number who are trying to get to the UK.

[FruitCider]

Because emotional support is important? Isn't that obvious?

There are many many organisations or NGOs that could facilitate such a system. Government officials would need to process applications though.

The problem is, the current system isn't working. It's forcing people on to boats.

To be honest I hadn't really given it much thought until last year when I saw this video.

There shouldn't be a need for NGOs to literally pluck people out of the sea.

[neonrainbow]

But that's never going to happen. So what do you think it the solution for the jungle? The one at calais that houses the migrants trying to get to the uk, that is. Just to be clear.