Three police officers shot dead in Dallas.

[DoctorTwo]

BBC link Blimey. I'm shocked but not really surprised as American police shot (apparently) 506 people to death in 2015, and another two this week.

But hey, good guys with guns will always stop bad people with guns killing good people, if the NRA are to be believed...

Chilled, to be clear, I CAN point to statistics, I am CHOOSING not to. I am choosing not to. Why? Because just as you have said that I cannot make claims without statistics, you also cannot refute claims without statistics. YOU are the one that wants the numbers and the stats yet you have chosen to come here and diminish feelings about what is happening rather than using that time to find the statistics yourself.

This thread is a reasonable discussion about what is happening in America ad you have chosen to come here expecting justification for your own agendas. I'm sure there are 101 places online that you could have opened your own discussion or indeed you could have started your own thread here on MN, but you chose to attempt to derail this discussion about an issue that is very real regardless of how much you want to argue it.

Lets just be clear here, the WHITE governor of Minnesota said himself that he does not believe that Philandro Castile would be dead right now if that car had been full of white passengers. This isn't just about a bunch of angry black people making noise for no reason, people from all walks of life, all races, cultures and backgrounds can see what this is and that something has to give but I guess there will always people people that are so uncomfortable with with reality of institutional racism that they have to deny it's very existence.

I got told that it's not appropriate to comment on another country's gun laws when there has just been a shooting in that country. Obviously that only applies one way, it's perfectly fine for Brits to comment on our laws after a shooting but completely unacceptable for me to comment on your laws after one of your politicians gets shot.

Hey UmbongoUnchained. Think how worse it would be if all the good guys gave up their weapons, while all the bad guys inevitably keep theirs. We don't have a perfect system but I don't see how you can make one. I'm not giving up my means of protection unless someone can give me a 100% guarantee I'd never need it. To date not even the most militant anti gun campaigner has been able to offer that.

Maybe move to a country where carrying a gun is illegal and than maybe you'll see how little sense your laws make. I've never once had to leave my house and worry about being shot. I've never met a civilian that's been shot. I wouldn't even know how to get a gun.

LostQueen I'm not sure you understand the difference between accepting claims as true, and refuting them. To be clear I'm not actually disputing anything you are saying, which as you pointed out would require some evidence on my part. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that you haven't presented enough (or, really, ANY) evidence to substantiate what you claimed.

I wasn't part of that discussion but if the thread was talking about a woman that was senselessly gunned down for standing up for what she believed was right, leaving two young children without a mother than I can't imagine that thread was the right place to start that conversation either.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/08/dallas-shooting-a-democracy-as-racist-as-america-will-never-be-a/

chilled warmth

"Both officers are on administrative leave [...] Both officers had body cameras, but the cameras were reportedly dislodged".

Very convenient for them, and now some paid time off...

from: www.vox.com/2016/7/6/12105380/alton-sterling-police-shooting-baton-rouge-Louisiana

I understand the difference perfectly, I still stand by what I've said. Asking for proof in this context is a connotation of refuting a claim as far as I'm concerned.

I wouldn't move to a country that didn't allow me to protect myself. I don't worry about being shot either. If I moved to a country where I wasn't allowed to carry, then anyone could easily mug me or something. I don't generally need to worry about that happening here, for one very good reason.

Literally speechless. So backwards.

I read a stat this morning, about how black American males born in 2001 have something like a 30% chance of going to prison in their lives. For white men of the same age it was something like 7%. Now why would that be? Looks like institutional prejudice to me.

I don't have a gun. I don't need one because I live in a country with reasonably effective gun control. The U.S. needs to get a grip on this because it's killing you. It's not crime as such. It's the presence of guns in your society.

I went to NYC and the whole time had an underlying fear that if someone mugged me at home, I'd have a black eye and a stolen phone, but that if someone mugged me there, I might be dead.

I even feel a little nervy in European countries where the police are carrying guns. I try, but I can't, just can't even begin to understand a perspective like yours chilledwarmth , however thank you for keeping posting, because IRL there'd be shouting in a conversation like this and I wouldn't be able to carefully consider the arguments for carrying a gun (which I still can only find ridiculous, but at least I have the opportunity to read someones opinions who believes in it)

LostQueen then if it's inappropriate to have a discussion on British gun laws in response to a shooting in Britain, why would it be appropriate to have a discussion about American gun laws in resposne to a shooting in America? It seemed like there a degree of double standards. The first comment most people seem to make on here in response to a shooting in America is "change the gun laws" but when I did the same after a shooting in Britain, suddenly it's inappropriate to turn a shooting into a discussion about gun laws.

It seems very petty of you to say that you can substantiate what you say but you're "choosing not to". That's fine but don't expect me to take you seriously. It's a shame because I was interested in hearing what you had to say. You mistook my unwillingness to readily accept your claims without evidence as a sign that I was actively disputing them. I wasn't, it's just standard practice for me not to accept such big claims without something to back them up.

I can't find it right now as wifi isn't good but there is a video floating about on YouTube of American police watching videos of British police.
They just can't believe that it's possible for our place to de arm a man, cuff him and get him into te back if the car using just his hands. On his own. Shows how poor their training is.

So what would you change our gun laws too then?

Zorian I would have thought that NYC would be an ideal place for people who don't like guns. There's pretty much a ban on anyone carrying one, so it would be just like walking around in your home country. I wouldn't be shouting, not sure why you are saying that, I don't yell at people even when they disagree with me.

I'd allow law abiding people to carry a gun for protection Umbongo. Do you have a distinction between felony crimes and misdemeanours? I'd ban felons from carrying one.

So some lunatic in our country manages to get hold of a gun and murder a mother of 2 while she campaigning and you think the solution is to make guns more available? Are you for fucking real?

Not necessarily you chilledwarmth I meant that when I have tried to have a discussion like this IRL with someone who is in favour of carrying guns they get very shouty and the argument has to stop.

Or they go "well you would say that you've been brainwashed by Europe" or something, and the argument has to stop.

So I appreciate the opportunity to discuss openly.

WRT NYC, that's good, I didn't know that. It was my first time in the States and unfortunately when we read about guns in America here, it doesn't go into much detail about state=state. Besides, it was only a niggling feeling of worry rather than a full-blown panic. But a feeling I don't have in Europe.

Can I ask what you make of reports like this one which found that for every time a gun in or around the home was used in self-defense, or in a legally justified shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides. That's one self-defense shooting for 22 accidental, suicidal or criminal shootings -- hardly support for the notion that having a gun handy makes people safer ?

This is very sad though, it is heartbreaking watching that video and hearing that tiny voice saying "mummy its okay, i'm here for you" as she sits next to her handcuffed mother in the back of the police car having been left alone with a dead/dying body.

If you can't see the difference in posting about gun laws in this country in response to what happened to Jo Cox and the difference in posting about gun laws in reaction to what is happening to people in America, there is no point in continuing this discussion.

Feel free to dismiss me as petty if it makes you feel better. Bottom line is, we don't agree and likely never will.

Chilledwarmth, i am guessing that you are serious when asking if there is any institutional racism in USA. try googling and ypu will get numerous articles. Did you not learn anything from Ferguson?

The entire American system is set up so that the black man fails. Every advantage is afforded to the white man over the black man. But there isnt much desire to change the system. A certain group benefits from maintaining the status quo.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11450804/The-shocking-racism-at-the-heart-of-one-US-police-force.html

some people still want segregation

I see what you mean now Zorian. I don't have much respect for the people you describe, even though it seems I do share their actual opinions on the gun debate. A debate like this never needs to escalate to yelling, or being abusive, or trying to close off any discussion by accusing people of being brainwashed.

I have to go start a shift soon so at best I can give it a quick look now and maybe get into more detail later. Those statistics look bad, but gun laws means subtracting guns from the good guys while doing very little about stopping truly bad people using them. It's my view that if we did just implement a nationwide ban, you'd still have the same number of criminal shootings, but you wouldn't have any incidents of someone successfully defending themselves with a gun. To borrow a figure of speech, guns are like a genie which has escaped the bottle, whether people like it or not. If you ask people to surrender them, the only people who will comply are law abiding people who were never any threat anyway. Two types of people will refuse. The genuinely bad criminals, and the other group are genuinely good law abiding people unwilling to give up their means of protection, and be willing to get branded criminals for it. You say that it's bad to have 1 legal self defence killing for every 22 illegal killings? Banning them makes that figure 0 legal self defence killings for every 22 illegal killings.

I don't worry about being mugged or attacked. The possibility of that happening is still there but I'm comfortable knowing I've taken reasonable steps against it. I'm under no illusion about what being armed does and doesn't mean, it doesn't mean I'm completely safe. No one is ever completely safe. But I've done what I can and know that if the shit ever hits the fan big time, I can put up a good fight and hopefully I'll get home safe. As I said I have to go out for a shift so sorry if that reply skimmed over a lot of the article I only read the first bits of it. I can go into more detail later, and thanks for actually engaging and not calling me a lunatic like others :D

LostQueen there is no difference. You see a shooting in America, you think a change in gun laws would prevent a similar shooting, you suggest a change in the law. I see a shooting in Britain, I think a change in gun laws could prevent a similar shooting, and I suggested it. Whether you are pro or anti gun is irrelevant, the question here is whether or not it's appropriate to suggest a change in the law immediately following a shooting. Either it is or it isn't, you can't say that it's ok for the anti gun side to call for change, but it's "inappropriate" for people who are pro gun to do it.

chilledwarmth, if you get mugged, the chances are you will be killed with your own gun, so you will have provided your attacker with the means to harm you.