Junior Doctors Strike

[Lanchester]

Do the Junior Doctors seriously think that they are still
respected for always putting the interest of their individual patient first?

Pausing why don't you answer some of the points I have made? Why should doctors (already highly paid) be a priority for scarce healthcare funds? They already earn more than the vast, vast majority of people.

Why can't I choose to see another consultant if mine is rude and unhelpful (and have the money to pay him or her follow me, instead of vice versa?)

How can it be right to knowingly leave sick and vulnerable people without proper care by withdrawing labour?

Any clueless 14 year old can make cheap points in the way you have done on this thread, but can you answer any of the difficult questions? Why should people suffer because doctors think they deserve to eat swan twice a week instead of only once? It's Marie Antionette stuff.

they do not allow more medical school places to prevent any potential oversupply and to maintain their own power.

I hear this said a lot. It is BS. The BMA has nothing to do with medical school places. Applications to medical school have fallen (I think by about 20%) in the last few years - very soon no-one will want to be a doctor in this country

Lanchester your pilot analogy is not even slightly close to a planned strike. The junior doctors aren't doing flash strikes and have given plenty of warning to minimise disruption.

In fact lanchester your analogy would only hold if a junior doctor walked away mid treatment. I don't think there has been or will be a single case of that happening.

Er, yeah, doctors think they deserve to eat swan twice a week instead of only once is a quality argument that absolutely deserves a reply.

Ditto the crap about birthday parties, lefty bingo, and the oh-so-sincere concern for people affected by 2 days without clinics - but not, apparently, for people affected daily by chronic understaffing and inability to fill posts.

As described many times on this thread, eg
ClaraLane Mon 25-Apr-16 17:48:18
I work in a hospital and the majority of my colleagues are happy to suck up 48 hours of disruption in the hopes that it might possibly mean we don't end up with the eventual disbanding of the NHS. Yes it's a pain in the arse for 48 hours but the enforcement of the contracts will led to years and years of issues.

and

Runningwithacheesegrater Mon 25-Apr-16 23:27:11
what recruitment crisis? hollow laugh The same recruitment crisis that has seen about half our medical graduates choosing not to train in England any longer 2 years post graduation? That's last year. Before all this kicked off. What do you think the numbers will be like this year?

These are specialist training posts that were like gold dust 5-10 years ago. We now have more empty posts than applicants in some specialties

and

andadietcoke Tue 26-Apr-16 06:45:32
There is a recruitment crisis and it's already worsening. In February the UK Foundation Programme Office said the foundation programme (the jobs for graduating medical students) was oversubscribed, ie there were more applicants than posts. This month they're having to run a Round 2 of recruitment, including recruiting in overseas doctors because there are vacancies - seemingly because the medical students haven't taken up the foundation jobs. Fill rate data for specialty training posts (appointment is 2 years and 4 years post graduation) has been embargoed and there are all sorts of FoI requests floating around about the number of available posts changing (to make the fill rates look better). To provide a 7-day NHS, which is what Jeremy's manifesto says he has to do, we need more doctors, or to pay the existing ones appropriately for the extra work they do. We are losing doctors. Rota gaps are already causing patient safety issues, worsened by Jeremy's locum pay cap, where locums get paid the equivalent of a substantive post but don't get any paid holiday, study leave, maternity leave, sick pay, job security etc etc.

I think they said it better than I could.

So if we're talking about answering points made, perhaps you'd like to start with those.

From where I am standing Draylon it's about pay, it's about bashing the Evil Tories (TM) and it is about protecting the privileged position in society that doctors think they deserve.

13% more pay, shorter shifts and less continuous night working - and they strike.

And how are patients "more safe" if the JD's are paid more for working on Saturdays?

Thinkaboutittomorrow
The analogy is valid because patients usually cannot 'reschedule' their sometimes chronic / debilitating / life threatening illness to suit the JD walkouts - no matter how much notice is given.
Also, as has been said before, there is a time sensitive nature to the missed opportunity to diagnose serious illness in patients presenting with symptoms. If that moment is missed then what will happen to the JD's patient?

Surely I will happily answer your questions when you answer mine. Why should scarce funds be used to pay doctors more to work Saturdays when sick people are already struggling to get basic care? How is their wage a priority over basic things like drugs and surgery? How many horror stories about the NHS do we have to hear before we accept we have a massive fucking problem? And that it can't and won't be solved (as it was in the 50's) by stuffing mouths of doctors with gold? There is no more fucking gold!!

If patient die or suffer injury then maybe they or their representatives can investigate the possibility of prosecution of striking BMA members for criminal negligence?

NHS Dental care standards in the UK used to be the laughing stock of the developed world.........
What do other developed countries now think of NHS medical and nursing care standards?
I suppose North Staffs etc etc etc type scandals make international news? Or perhaps its not newsworthy any more....its just the same cynical mantra 'lessons have been learnt"...every time the same platitudes and declining Ethics and Care standards in the NHS

Sorry, namechange fail.

No, I think I'd like to see you answer the above points first.

They came before you in the thread, and you've made no attempt to answer them.

Although actually your "questions" answer themselves. Why are sick people struggling to get basic care? Basic care provided by... doctors who aren't there? Surgery by empty positions?

Some of us have been concerned for quite a while about the impact on the NHS of an ageing population - even more so in the context of a government determined to cut taxes, and the insane slashing of social care budgets which has completely predictably thrown an enormous additional and unnecessary weight onto medical services.

None of this makes me think, "Something must be done, therefore this specific JD contract must be the Something."

Right then, off you go.

You're going to happily answer the questions about recruitment, retention and filling posts, aren't you, YoungGirl.

YoungGirl not asking to be paid more. Asking to NOT be paid LESS. Is it so hard to understand?

Charliebailey - you replied to my comment on doctors not receiving pay rises if not performing as King why that was a bad thing... I didn't say it was a bad thing, it was a factual reply to someone asking if doctors get pay rises regardless of perormance. I think it's a good thing. the reason juniors get pay rises is that they are worth more because they have learnt more and gained more experience. If they've not learnt more, if they've not gained experience, they are not worth more money than they were last year.

I fully support the junior doctors' strike and will continue to support an all-out strike if necessary.

I know several "junior" doctors who are struggling to maintain something approximating normal family life due to the pressure and strain of long hours and low pay. It's total bullshit - they and their families deserve better.

I am talking about people struggling to get basic care on a normal day, Pausing. 3 weeks for a GP appointment and a 6 month wait to see a specialist? I know, lets increase the amount we pay JD's to work Saturdays! That'll fix it! (Exactly the type of trite response you have given above).

Lanchester the only thing you need to know about the NHS is that not one other country uses the same system. I will vote for the first party that offers us the French/German system (and yes I am aware that is not what Hunt is proposing).

I can see that future JD's will be locked into the NHS for a period of time until they have paid back their training. And rightly so - it works for pilots, the RAF, law and I am sure many others. I cannot see Hunt backing down on this and I sincerely hope nobody gets hurt as a consequence of these hotheaded, greedy imbeciles.

You genuinely can't see the connection between staffing and how long it takes to get an appointment, YoungGirl?

Er, OK.

Dear PausingFlatly,
If you want to buy a particular necessity in the shop and you have £10, then if the shop charges £5 per packet you can buy 2 packets,
BUT if the shop gets greedy and charges £10 per packet, then you can only afford one packet.
If you tell the shop that you need the food .... but they reply that they are the best shop in the world and you should be grateful that they are even bothering to serve the likes of you....how would you feel?

Right, I'll have to leave this thread for a bit to get up to the hospital and see if there's a picket line (there might not be, of course).

3 weeks for a GP appointment and a 6 month wait to see a specialist? I know, lets increase the amount we pay JD's to work Saturdays! That'll fix it!

No, you clearly think that the way to fix this is to make working conditions worse and slash pay because that will encourage the number of people training to be GPs and specialist

And for those of you still saying we are greedy and want to be paid more...

We are not asking for more money. We earn a good wage.

Hunt wants juniors to work MORE hours. He wants those hours to be even less predictable than they already are. He wants to pay LESS money to work MORE hours.

Not only does this enforced contract change want more hours worked for less money, it has a clause in it which says it can be changed at any time with no negotiation. So juniors would be signing away any right to complain if and when they impose a new, even worse contract

Pausing head to your local town centre instead maybe. Most picket lines are heading to meet the doctors and CPR skills sessions in the pm.

I.e. NHS staff are pricing themselves out of jobs.
Also a major reason that doctors often reduce to part time work / retire early is that due to overly generous salaries/ pensions they can AFFORD to do so. Inflated salaries are thus completely counter productive for retaining staff.

I fully support the junior doctors.
The government's own equality assessment of the new contract concluded that it was unfair for women , but took the view that that was fine in order to implement the overall aim of the goverment.We already have a 7 day NHS emergency service. In a perfect world , it would be great to have a full elective service 2hrs a day, seven days a week but no county in the world has a full elective 7 day health service . The doctors are already spread too thinly with many gaps in the rota. Logically you cannot spread them thinner , with the same number of doctors and expect to be able to provide a safe service. Junior doctors already work at weekends but Hunt is focussing on them rather then admitting that improved weekend services would need more investment for physio,pharmacy, diagnostics, support and social services etc. The responsibility for the emergency strike is firmly with Hunt. He wrote a book about privitising the NHS and is trying to break the NHS so it is ready to be broken up and sold. The BMA offered a cost neutral proposal which Hunt personally vetoed and proceed to impose his contract on the doctors. If you are ill during the strikes, you will be looked after by the most experienced and well qualified doctors in the NHS - the consultants - so please don't worry - you will be in safe hands. Please support the junior doctors - they are sticking for your future too.