Obama, concern for the UK or US?

[ProfessorPreciseaBug]

Listening to Obama, I was struck that his language seemed to be about what is good for the US not what is good for the UK. Certainly the former US treasury secretary interviewed on the Today program was very US centric.

His comment about us going to the back of the queue, (and he did say queue instead of line because he was told to) seemed to be a bit of a threat. Is he out of order?

Absolutely terrified with the prospect of Turkey becoming members

Yes claig. We can always vote for a different government in Westminster, but we can't change the EU.

The UK can trade and think for itself, without having to constantly get the approval of 27 other countries.

There is a lot of Schadenfreude in the German press.

They were more concerned when Greece was about to crash out. I wonder if it;s only because of the euro, or maybe because they know that if we left they will take our place. If they haven't already done so,

The Eu has been left-leaning before and can be again.

Tories are always for the super wealthy and big business.

The UK has been left-leaning before and can be again We can vote the Tories out, and elect a different government in Westminster.

There's no guarantee that the EU will be more left-leaning in the future. The far right seems to be on the rise.

We have had the EU for years and we have seen union rights trashed under Blair and the Tories, we have seen the rise of zero-hour contracts and temporary agency workers across Europe and 1 year employmemt contracts in France etc, but the ultimate big business policies have been the erosion of nationalised industries, the forbidding of state support to stell industries etc, and the competition policies that work against state aid.

We saw the austerity that was imposed on Greece and the closure of their banks so that people couldn't take much of their own money out and the ignoring of the democratic will in Greece and we have seen a low growth recession across Europe for years as millions of young people are unemployed, and now we have seen a reckless migrant policy by Germany which will just lead to more people chasing fewer jobs.

With TTIP next, they are tightening the noose and they won't even let people read and discuss what the bureaucrats and "bought and paid for" are negotiataing, supposedly on our behalf.

We don't even have national TV debates about what they are up to in Brussels, supposedly on our behalf. Most of us haven't got a clue who our MEPs are. At least here we have a vigorous debate about national politics, even if they then stitch it all up by First Past the Post voting afterwards.

There's no guarantee that the EU will be more left-leaning in the future. The far right seems to be on the rise.

Why would the big corporation dominated EU ever want to become left-leaning? Big corporations don't care about workers rights.

Who is funding the REMAIN campaign - Big business

Big corporations, big banks - Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Citigroup, hedge funds all recommend REMAINing in the EU because it's easy for them to lobby the undemocratic EU to make EU laws that suit big business.

It's more difficult for big business to have to sway 28 democratic Governments .

Much better to get everyone to REMAIn under the control is the EU and under the influence of big business

The UK won't starve, but our economy & trade will be hit.
We'll probably have large public spending cuts and interest rate rises too, to avoid the pound crashing through the floor.

After Brexit, we'd still have to pay into the EU and follow EU rules if we want to trade with them, like other European non-members. The difference will be that we'll no longer have a vote on policy.

There is a price for going it alone and tearing up our current trade agreements:
We can't force the rest if the world to prioritise what we need, just because we chose to abandon our current trade agreements.
Obama - and Clinton who is his likely successor - have both said it would take 5-10 years to negotiate new US-UK trade agreements AND get it through the US Senate & Congress.
The EU has more urgent priorities too.

Business need confidence & stability to invest. When multinationals downsize, the UK offspring would be first to go, if we no longer give them the advantage of selling within the EU
e.g. Europe has massive over capacity in volume car production, so UK sites are the obvious ones to ditch.

Even conservatives in Westeran EU countries like France & Germany are far less hardline wrt workers' rights and the vulnerable in society than the UK Tories.

It seems a bit odd to make this a left-right issue tbh, since governments will come and go whatever the result, but it is certainly true that regardless of their position on the political spectrum, most European parties are far more pro workers' rights than either the Tories or New Labour.

Remember that the UK has opted out of many EU social policies, including restrictions on working hours, and also has much more negative attitudes to worker participation. In corporatist Germany, trade unions play a key role in company management - they are not demonised as they are in the UK.

The EU has been more left-leaning because the governments of Western Europe are not as rightwing as the Tories we keep electing,
e.g. Compare Merkel to Cameron; compare the rights of workers in Germany & France to those in the UK
Compare the inequality of income and wealth between Uk and the rest of Western Europe.
The savagery with which those on benefits are treated in the UK.

There is a difference between businesses who want to squeeze the last drop of blood & sweat from the rest of us and those who think a more prosperous society is good for business.
Most UK businesses with large UK investments don't want to lose money and see firms crash. So they are for Bremain

In comparison, Murdoch explained why he wanted Brexit "When I phone the UK Prime Minister, he listens. When I phone the EU President, he doesn't"
His power is constrained within the EU.

The rightwing Tories who push Brexit have NEVER been on the side of ordinary people, of giving us a fair chance of a decent standard of living.
Have IDS, Boris, Redwood, Farage, Nick Griffin ever been on our side ?
Brexit would leave us wholly at their mercy, no constraints on their behaviour.

The UK won't starve, but our economy & trade will be hit.

A prediction, not a fact.

We'll probably have large public spending cuts and interest rate rises too, to avoid the pound crashing through the floor.

^^ Project Fear ^

We will not be obliged to give the EU £350million a week. We will not be asked for the occasional £1.6 billion by the EU because our economy out-performed expectations

After Brexit, we'd still have to pay into the EU and follow EU rules if we want to trade with them, like other European non-members.

Wrong. Many European non-EU member countries trade tariff-free with the EU. Iceland, Turkey, Macedonia all trade tariff- free with the EU

The difference will be that we'll no longer have a vote on policy.
We have very little influence in policy now and that will reduce further as new member countries join the EU

There is a price for going it alone and tearing up our current trade agreements:
We can't force the rest if the world to prioritise what we need, just because we chose to abandon our current trade agreements.

Trade will still continue. We will regain our seat in the World Trade Organisation and trade under that framework, like many other countries in the world do.

Obama - and Clinton who is his likely successor - have both said it would take 5-10 years to negotiate new US-UK trade agreements AND get it through the US Senate & Congress.

The EU currently has no trade deal with the U.S. The UK therefore has no current trade deal with the U.S. So the situation remains the same whether we are in our out of the EU. If we stay in the EU we will be subject to the hated TTIP deal. If we leave the EU we escape it and will not have a new UK / US forced on us as we are now 'at the back of the queue, luckily as that allows us to keep the NHS longer.

The EU has more urgent priorities too.
The EU is obliged under the Lisbon Treaty to discuss trade arrangements with us list BREXIT, however if these are fruitless we will trade via other arrangements such as WTO, and the EU cannot stop us or penalise us.

Business need confidence & stability to invest.
Whuch makes them more likely to retain confidence in the £ given the systemic flaws in the Euro and the new emerging Greek debt crisis ( scheduled to happen after the UK referendum)

When multinationals downsize, the UK offspring would be first to go, if we no longer give them the advantage of selling within the EU
Since the referendum was announced Boeing has chosen the UK as its European HQ, Avon vid metics is moving from the U.S. to the UK and Aston Martin are opening a new factory in Wales. BREXIT holds no fears for them

e.g. Europe has massive over capacity in volume car production, so UK sites are the obvious ones to ditch.

Toyota and Honda have both confirmed they will stay in the UK regardless. On the other hand, the EU used EU funding to close the Ford company in Southampton and transfer the work to Turkey. Those redundant Ford workers in Southampton don't think the EU had their workers rights at its heart, using their tax to destroy their jobs

If the EU was really do great, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Everyone would be pro-EU. It isn't great. It's the biggest con ever perpetrated against the British. It is political union and a diminution of The rights of the British people, masquerading as a trade organisation. It isn't a trade organisation, it's a European Superstate that governs you

The difference will be that we'll no longer have a vote on policy.

When the UK has voted "no" it has been outvoted in the EU. When it has voted "yes" it was going along with the consensus anyway. So how exactly does the UK's vote make any difference?

Ted Cruz is a climate change denier too, if that matters to anyone.

But we can vote them out. We cannot get rid of the EU Commission, they are unsackable.

One of my favourite quotes by Tony Benn:

The House will forgive me for quoting five democratic questions that I have developed during my life. If one meets a powerful personRupert Murdoch, perhaps, or Joe Stalin or Hitlerone can ask five questions: what power do you have; where did you get it; in whose interests do you exercise it; to whom are you accountable; and, how can we get rid of you? Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system.

The last of those five points "how do we get rid of you?" We cant.

That was in reply to BigChocFrenzy.

We don't have much of a vote anyway, in the sense that no one listens to us.

They humiliated David Cameron when he went to negotiate with them.

It's funny but it seems the East Europeans killed the goose who laid the golden eggs.

They were so hard in negotiation their workers rights that what will happen is that either we well get out and these workers, who came here to find a better life for themselves and good schools and brighter future for their children will be in limbo or will have to go back, or that we'll stay and will have three more million, or more, because no one knows for sure, immigrants and will get overcrowded over supplied with and the good life they came chasing won't be available anymore.

A compromise would have come a long way.
But no, their shortsightedness and DC inability to negotiate painted us all in the corner.

But no, their shortsightedness and DC inability to negotiate painted us all in the corner.

Cameron was never negotiating seriously. It was just a sham. Cameron talked if reducing EU migration into the UK yet it has increased every year. He says the situation is "unsustainable" yet he has taken no steps to reduce it - because he knows he can't.

The sad truth is that uncontrolled mass migration from the EU into the UK is great for Cameron as it stimulates the economy, it keeps wages lower and it keeps the demand for housing up, and therefore no likelihood of a price crash.

So don't believe a word Cameron says. He is pro-EU and always has been

He is pro-EU migration to the UK I

His inky problem is when we start to realise that our hospitals can't cope, we can't get Go appointments , there are no school places for our kids and our kids can never afford decent accommodation because the coast are so high

Welcome to Cameron's wonderful UK within the EU. Not that Cameron is bothered - he can afford to buy his ways out if these problems. He's levy enough to get £45k a year renting out his house while he lives free in Downing Sy

The Eunis for rich people, big business, big banks, hedge funds, rich failed politicians in the EU gravy train - basically all those who are urging you to surrender your freedoms to the EU. Like Greece did.

One concern about TTIP that tends to be overlooked is the impact it will have on the third world.

The largest trade agreement the world has ever seen will devastate many in developing nations at a time when we should be looking at sustainable development.

For instance, TTIP will lift sugar beet production restrictions on EU producers. who are given generous subsidies under our Common Agricultural Policy (another huge flaw in the EU system).

A European Union quota that caps sugar beet production and allows poor farmers to compete is set to end in 2017. Not only do EU farmers receive subsidies that disadvantage farmers from developing countries but a study by the Overseas Development Institute found that if the abolition of the sugar beet cap is accompanied by a global drop in sugar prices, up to 6.4 million people could be pushed into poverty by 2020. The Guardian March 24, 2015.

We know what global inequality does - we see children dying, communities devastated, rises in extremism, rampant migration. So shouldnt we be looking at closing the gap between the richest and poorest on earth not widening it.

One concern about TTIP that tends to be overlooked is the impact it will have on the third world.

I am so glad you raised this. The whole impact of the EU on developing countries is overlooked. The EU raises barriers to imports from developing countries as it strives to protect its domestic producers and therefore keeps prices artificially high within the EU, while denying the developing world trade opportunities

If we had been discussing the EU, say 20 years ago, the impact of the EU on developing countries would have been a major discussion point as. Strive for FairTrade agreements and sought to assist emerging economies in poorer countries. Nobody seems concerned about that now. It just seems to be about the bottom line and what the EU can get for itself regardless of the cost to other nations and devoid of any social conscience

It's a very selfish organisation, but just what you expect from an organisation that is driven and totally infiltrated by big Corpa

It is a disgusting agreement. I follow someone on Twitter from Africa and we were tweeting about it this morning (he is very worried about TTIP). I felt ashamed to be part of a regime which is planning on destroying so much hope and opportunity in poorer nations. Its a disgrace. My father is from Sub-Saharan Africa so, for me there is a connection but surely anyone with an ounce of compassion doesnt want to be part of an agreement which will decimate rural villages in the third world.

"uncontrolled mass immigration"
Wow, I see we are coming to the heart of what really motivates most Brexiters, what sends nationalist voters batshit:

immigration

What makes some people vote Tory against their own interests, election after election. Thanks a bunch for Cameron, btw. Shows where nationalism gets you.

The immigration that gets most people worked up isn't from within the EU and won't be affected in the slightest by Brexit.
I'm half-Arab. You can't send me back "home". Tough.

Our problems wrt public services are because the Tories prioritise tax cuts for the better over public services and benefits for the vulnerable. They allow multinationals and billionaires to avoid almost all tax.
The EU didn't tell them to do that.
If the British people didn't want that, why did they vote Tory ?
Brexit and electing Tory governments will just continue the rundown of public services - just like Bremain and electing Tory governments.

Brexit isn't this magic wand. All the basic problems we have now, will remain.
The EU isn't magic either
The decision to stay or leave should be about balancing pros and cons.

Of course many mutinationals will stay in the UK. Some won't and I don't think we can afford to lose any just on nationalist principle. But that's my view.
Others will weight nationalism / economic benefits differently
To some, being outvoted sometimes in Europe is unbearable.
To some, having foreigners among you is unbearable.

I voted YES in the original 1974 referendum because I thought we would have a slightly better chance of solving complex national & international problems as part of the then EEC.
Also, because most economists & most politicians except those on the far left or far right thought it would benefit us economically.
I would still vote YES.

I would like the UK to play a fuller part in the EU and help reform it.
The EU is bound to change radically anyway, because the whole world is changing so fast and affecting us in the West.

Already has destroyed markets in developing world through its protectionism.

You rarely hear any UK politicians concerns about the developing world - they just throw aid at the, without fixing the real problem - sustainable trade

The EU is a morally bankrupt cartel that punished the Greeks for their disobedience in voting Oxi and is now in the human trafficking business with Turkey which it has bribed to allow the EU to export migrants to that country, after cursory investigation of their asylum claims.

No thanks. The EU is not something i want to, be part of

I would like the UK to play a fuller part in the EU and help reform it.

Delusion.

Tories & Labour are in favour of TTIP - the Tories especially would leap straight in.The EU are trying to negotiate a better deal for European countries (including the UK)
None of the above pay attention to Africa, except for empty soundbites

After the Brexit ravings over "mass immigration" pardon me if I don't believe all this concern for developing countries. People who really care, don't talk like that.

"Delusion" = anyone who supports Bremain ?
I don't agree with Brexit, but I don't call Brexit a delusion. Just that I think it will be the worse of the 2 options on offer.

I do object to scare tactics about "mass immigration" because I find that offensive and not helpful in getting on together in a multicultural society.

What reforms do you want to see BigChoc?

For me it doesn't work fundamentally because it's not Union of countries with equal economic development which is what it was supposed to do. How do you reform that?

What would you like to see changed?