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News

UK woman convicted of abortion

594 replies

Veterinari · 05/04/2016 11:07

Full story here www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/woman-given-suspended-sentence-for-having-abortion-in-the-uk-a6968676.html

Very sad. Is there a will in NI to update legislation on this issue? As it stands everyone loses

OP posts:
paintandbrush · 09/04/2016 21:32

At the very least, you would think there would be a kind of tacit understanding of a "don't ask, don't tell" nature. Sadly what you see from the housemates' attitude is a kind of moral righteousness widespread in NI society (both sides).

IMO it was totally out of order to declare that they reported her basically because she didn't seem sorry enough. "There is a special place in hell for women who don't support other women" comes to mind. I'd second whoever said there's also a strong 'oh-the-poor-wee-baby' pro-lifer contingent among young people.

The housemate who did the Nolan interview sounded like a Protestant, but I remember reading something about a Irish 'midwives' code of practice' the Church tried to bring in around 1910, where the baby's life was supposed to be prioritised above that of the mother. There's just so much wrong with that whole attitude, which still exists- women are expendable, who cares about their rights?

RufusTheReindeer · 09/04/2016 21:40

paint

I thought that...

There is a special place in hell for betrayers

My mum was threatened with excommunication when she told the priest that she was on the pill back in the 60's

Not Irish but catholic and a product of the magdalane orphanages

veryproudvolleyballmum · 09/04/2016 21:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 09/04/2016 22:52

Because I have a life and don't hang on the end of your posts very. What was your question?

SuburbanRhonda · 09/04/2016 23:00

We all have lives, gone, not just you.

That's why we dip in and out of these threads, in case you hadn't noticed.

RufusTheReindeer · 09/04/2016 23:18

I always read from my last post and make sure that someone hasnt asked me a question or made a comment

I thought that was good manners

RufusTheReindeer · 09/04/2016 23:19

Nope ...that'll be me not having a life

LucyBabs · 09/04/2016 23:22

Just to mention again. I had a late miscarriage at 19 weeks pregnant and it took a postmortem to determine the sex. It wasn't visible that he was a boy.

I can understand these flatmates have their own beliefs.. If they don't support a woman's right to choose..OK then. BUT it's the lies that are the problem

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 10/04/2016 00:46

If you're going to ask why someone hasn't answered a question, you have a much higher chance of receiving an answer if you take the time to remind them what it was. I have much, much more than Very's question on my plate today and after her appallingly rude comments earlier, did not feel like trawling through this soul-destroying thread to see exactly how she had been, in all likelihood, rude earlier. Like it or lump it, very, if you want an answer you can jolly well pop the question again!

SuburbanRhonda · 10/04/2016 09:20

It's probably this one, gone.

gone given than my baby had no brain, and could not have survived outside my body, can you please explain to me why a TFMR should not have been available to me?

AugustaFinkNottle · 10/04/2016 10:18

Vintage and "Gone", the flatmates have given different versions of the truth and you seem to be picking and choosing which one you want to believe. It is unquestionably the case that they would not have been able to tell the foetus' sex.

A criminal conviction does not preclude one from working, although they usually do have to be disclosed as part of an application process.

I didn't say it did preclude people from working. What I said was that the conviction would "circumscribe her life choices from now on". Why are you answering a statement that no-one has made, Vintage?

I would have more time for the women's rights argument in abortion if these rights didn't magically disappear and reappear according to the desirability of the baby.

This statement of Gone's is particularly bizarre. The women's rights position is that there should be a right to abortion, irrespective of the desirability of the foetus, with exceptions along the lines of what is set out in the law in England and Wales. It is the so-called pro-life people who seem to get a bit wobbly about their stance on the life of the foetus following rape or where there is severe disability.

veryproudvolleyballmum · 10/04/2016 10:25

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gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 10/04/2016 10:28

I thought that question had been answered by my response to your very rude post earlier very (not the best way to get an answer BTW).

Please refer to it, if you want to know my views. Though I'm not sure why you would....

veryproudvolleyballmum · 10/04/2016 10:29

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exLtEveDallas · 10/04/2016 10:30

more time for the women's rights argument in abortion if these rights didn't magically disappear and reappear according to the desirability of the baby

My view on abortion is quite simple and never changes:

"All women should have the right to an abortion and the right to have the process completed as early as possible, as late as necessary"

Quite simple really.

veryproudvolleyballmum · 10/04/2016 10:33

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SuburbanRhonda · 10/04/2016 10:36

Seeing as I found the post for you, gone, because you were too busy to look yourself, perhaps you'd care to point out which of your posts answers very's question. Just that I'd like to know the answer too.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 10/04/2016 10:44

It is unquestionably the case...

Why? How do you know so clearly that absolutely no indication of sexual organ would have been visible at that point, given that the foetus was 10-12 weeks and those organs have finished forming not long after that? Why is it so unquestionably the case? And why is someone going through a miscarriage in the first trimester advised to have a pair of scissors on hand, if there is no possibility of any kind of umbilical cord? I think you have some answering to do.

statement of gone's is particularly bizarre

You're dodging that issue with a remarkable lack of agility. We are not talking about the law but the justification for the moral principles informing the law. It's not enough to say that a woman's rights can disappear at viability because the law says they can, providing there's nothing wrong with her baby. If the woman's rights rest on being able to do what she wants with her own body, surely she should be able to do as she thinks best for as long as the baby is within her, or even dependent on her? Most pro-choicers draw the line at aborting a fully formed baby that could live outside the womb, but there is actually no reason why this should morally be the case, by your standards, because the argument didn't rest on whether the baby could live outside the womb, but upon the fact that it was depending on the woman's body to survive - something that continues until birth if not beyond. As far as I can see (unless you are able to engage with this question and put some other view forward), the woman's right to bodily autonomy is only a strong enough argument while the baby doesn't look like a baby. Which makes it more about emotions and what we feel comfortable doing, rather than anything particularly to do with bodily autonomy.

I can accept that because, as I've said, this is a balancing act. And there is a kind of parallel balancing act playing out among pro-lifers on the other side, because their stance falters when the life of the mother is in grave danger, or when her pregnancy is the product of a rape. Life is murky and complex; it would be naive to think there is any rule of thumb that, if applied in all circumstances, would be palatable to either camp. As is illustrated on the pro-choice front by your unease (I hope) at the idea that while it would be morally flawless to administer a lethal injection to a full-term baby with Down's Syndrome five minutes before birth, the same act would be a murderous tragedy if administered five minutes later. Or if you'd like another example of where there law just doesn't fit any decent ethical code that I've ever heard of, that woman who was sentenced to prison for going through her own late-term abortion was condemned as an absolute scumbag, but would have been sympathised with and condoned for having the same procedure if her baby had Down's Syndrome - note I didn't say 'no brain', but Down's Syndrome.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 10/04/2016 10:46

I don't think you should have been denied access to an abortion, very, as I thought was clear when I said that I wouldn't suggest otherwise to give you the satisfaction of hating another pro-lifer, and that this was different to a case of Down's Syndrome because, with respect, the terms in which you described your baby made it clear that there was no possibility that he or she would live.

veryproudvolleyballmum · 10/04/2016 10:47

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AugustaFinkNottle · 10/04/2016 11:01

Gone, would you care to link to the advice about having scissors for a natural miscarriage, because it's not obvious on Google.? Having had two miscarriages at around 12 weeks, including one that took some time, I was certainly never advised to have scissors.

Male and female genital development is such that up to around 12 weeks of pregnancy the difference is not visible to the naked eye. Both have the same structures up to 11 weeks, and the entire foetus is is only 45/50 millimetres in size. This woman was 10 weeks pregnant. A layman viewing a foetus mixed in with other products of pregnancy is really not going to be able to tell the sex.

exLtEveDallas · 10/04/2016 11:03

Most Pro Choice supporters base their Pro Choice stance on the point at which a foetus/baby is able to live outside the womb. Some are happier with the stance meaning "unassisted" outside the womb, which would extend the 'legal' limit past the current 24 weeks (as a 24 weeker will need medical intervention to survive).

Very few pro choice supporters would support termination 5 minutes before birth in a regular 40 week pregnancy as the child would be able to live unassisted. You are using a strawman arguements because you know your own views are twisted. Forced birthers always do this, and you are no exception gone

AugustaFinkNottle · 10/04/2016 11:06

As I pointed out in response to your post about Very's situation, Gone, some anencephalic babies do in fact survive birth. You said that of course she should have been offered abortion. Should that right have been taken from her if a medic said that the baby would live but would die within an hour of birth?

How about babies with conditions that mean they will survive birth but will only live a very short life filled with agony? Should their mothers be allowed termination?

veryproudvolleyballmum · 10/04/2016 11:07

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AugustaFinkNottle · 10/04/2016 11:13

Gone, you are misreading my post at 10.18, and indeed I really do not know why you claim to know all the details of my precise moral stance on the issue of abortion since what I was referring to was broadly the women's rights position. As is I think reasonably clear if you are not misreading, I referred to the legal position in England and Wales not because I was suggesting that was definitive but because it broadly accords with what the general women's rights position is. And, self-evidently, that position has nothing whatsoever to do with, using your phrase, "the desirability of the baby".