UK woman convicted of abortion

[Veterinari]

Full story here www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/woman-given-suspended-sentence-for-having-abortion-in-the-uk-a6968676.html

Very sad. Is there a will in NI to update legislation on this issue? As it stands everyone loses

Dontlaugh

because in Catholic teaching Methotrexate is not permissible but removing the woman's' tube is, as the intentions are different, theologically speaking.

I'm so sorry for what you went through.

^ this should be a good example of why religion should not enter in to debates on women's healthcare. How sad. Everyone should read your story up thread.

To those calling for care for the living children and decrying any connection between religion and healthcare I would just point out that actually that in this country most charity and practical support for the least advantaged in society comes from those with a Faith base and that most hospitals were initially conceptualised, built, staffed and run by people precisely because they did have a religious Faith.

And thats all you need to have compassionate health care.... isn't it?

All I have to say to that is one word.

Symphysiotomy.

Thank fuck for evidence based medicine.

"I am wondering at the hypocrisy of people arguing that prostitution should be de-criminalised and accepted, because women have the right to do what they want with their own bodies, and yet the opposite is argued when it comes to abortion."

Not by me. I'm firmly of the opinion that prostitution should be legalized & regulated. People should freely do whatever the hell they want with & to their own bodies, incuding extreme sports and recreational drugs. As long as they don't break any laws, naturally.

"Even to get a legal one you must get the consent of two doctors."

Not where we are (France). Here, you go to your gynecologist (everyone has one) and say you want the abortion pill. That's all. And that is if you didn't get the morning-after pill from the pharmacy.

In fairness, the flat mates are a pair of judgemental cunts so I really have no compunction in judging them as scum. I try not to judge, but I'm afraid in this case I'll make an exception without guilt. I am N Irish and it is laughable that such a sizeable part wants to be part of Britain while rejecting it's cultures and morals.

"two ladies might have had a different perspective on the situation"

Because teenagers with different perspectives call the police on their friends, and that is normal?

I don't think pointing out that the flatmates have lied, and are therefore liars, is abuse and vitriol. It's just a statement.

They didn't actually want to be independent- they wanted - quite vehemently - to be part of the UK

Not every did, Can't

What's strange is in Ireland you can get the morning after pill. You can't just rock into the chemist and grab one (I don't think) but you can get it.

But you can't have an abortion...

and one over which you have no say - unless you are a Northern Irish citizen

I'm in the EU. NI is still subject to Human Rights as its also enshrined in EU law and in NI law.

The fact that the current abortion law in NI is in fact in breach of this and was ruled by a judge to be in Dec 2015, therefore is quite laughable if you are telling 'the English' to butt out.

You have a law which your own law says is unlawful.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35110085

The trouble with this ruling is politicians have no obligation to follow the legal ruling.

So guess what they did?

In February they voted to keep the unlawful laws and not change a thing.

This is despite the fact that '68 per cent of people recently polled support the legalisation of abortion following sex crime or fatal fetal abnormality.'

So why is it, that not only is the law unlawful but it also does not reflect the democratic opinion of the NI people?

On top of this the actual law states this:
the Northern Ireland Executive state that access to abortion is only permitted if a woman's life is at risk or there is a permanent or serious risk to her mental or physical health.

Now how this is defined is a point of contention. You would be treated differently in NI and England as what constitutes 'serious risk to mental health' because quite frankly maternal mental health in NI is backward and is dominated by religious attitudes rather than evidence based medicine. (I can provide a few other examples if you wish).

Ahh yes. Lets get it straight: RELIGION. THE UTTER BOLLOCKS OF RELIGION. Not any of the good stuff that religion do. Just the utter bollocks bits. Shared in equal measure by deeply unpleasant bigoted politicians

So you know what? You can stick your 'you have no say in abortion law in NI' crap where it belongs because actually as an EU citizen I DO have a say. And as a citizen of the UK and NI I think its my public duty to stick up for democracy and human rights in MY COUNTRY which whether you like it or not DOES include NI.

Perhaps you as a NI citizen could you compel your own representatives to perhaps enter the 21st century and actually respect the law and human rights. Because if you won't I have to.

(Incidentally I will be voting to stay in the EU as I think arguments like this trump any financial arguments anyway and the prospect of NI being allowed 'off the hook' if we leave the EU is disgusting).

Well said RedToothBrush, well said.
We need the EU in NI, otherwise who knows what the executive will get up to.

Think you were missing my point slightly gone

But it was a bit of a rant so in fairness probably looked like there wasn't one

Didnt she tell the other two women that she was going to buy pills and abort ?

That was the time to get the police involved and "save" the foetus

But they waited til after the event (well after)

If they had reported her to a heathcare proffessional because they were "worried" it would still have had the same effect

If i have the wrong end of the stick i apologise

very I could tell you what bakery makes the best treacle soda known to humanity (apart from your granny's of course!)

I'm in N Ireland and frankly there is no point lobbying my MP for a change in the law because I know that he is vehemently anti abortion, but perhaps more importantly I'm in an area where the churches have huge influence over everything so he would lose votes if he were even to be seen to consider the matter.

As an example of how the foetus takes priority over the woman in N Ireland, I developed a breast lump when I was four months pregnant. I wasn't even seen by a specialist until after my baby was born because I was told that no treatment would be offered even if it was found to be something sinister. Now fortunately for me it was all benign but it is a heart stopping moment to hear that you may have a serious medical condition but be refused treatment.

treacle and very, its awful that NI politics is in that state and is so dominated by religion. Its always appalled me.

The trouble is, that both sides now use the situation to 'keep the English out' in order to maintain their positions of power rather than reflecting what the average person wants.

This is why NI's fragile democracy needs support from outside. If only to hold a mirror up to what is happening, put pressure on and to challenge it that way rather than interfering directly. You can support NI self determination, democracy and be English. The key word being 'support'.

Its just an awful case but the thing I keep coming back to is while it's easy to blame the flatmates this is about NI law and the fault lies there for me. I'd be really upset at the thought of a foetus in my bin also, but its NI's law that led to it and everyone being in a horrible situation

The thing I never get is this isn't about being pro or anti abortion its about choice. If you don't agree with abortion and believe that your baby's life begins at conception then don't have one. No problem, but don't try and roll out your beliefs (which others think are wrong) to other people. People who are pro choice support those who are anti abortion to make their own choice also.

The thing that always strike me in any discussion around abortion or the lunatic ideas of Catholicism around contraception are that it cannot ever be logical to make women give birth to babies they don't want. A baby/ pregnancy needs to be wanted, loved and cherished not forced on a woman (or girl) as some kind of punishment for having sex.

redtoothbrush I really wish there was a like button on MN for your posts.

At the last election I contacted the representatives for each party in my constituency to ask their thoughts on abortion. Here is what the DUP candidate said to me:

^Dear Ms X

Thank you very much for your letter regarding the Pro Choice campaign and abortion rights in Northern Ireland.

I do not believe that we should extend the abortion legislation that pertains in Great Britain to Northern Ireland and believe that the current safeguards that are in place, should remain.

I know this is not the response you wished to have and the issue of abortion is one that is highly divisive in our society and on both sides there are sincerely held views.

You will be aware there is a consultation out at present where the Justice Minister is contemplating some changes in the abortion legislation, though fairly minimal, and they will be debated in the Northern Ireland Assembly sometime in the near future.^

The politicians on the right wing side have no wish to change things.

I don't think waiting a week before going to the police says anything damning - if anything, it says they were thinking hard about what to do

What it says is that they didn't genuinely care about the foetus. No-one who purported to be as distressed as they claim would have sat around for a week.

To those calling for care for the living children and decrying any connection between religion and healthcare I would just point out that actually that in this country most charity and practical support for the least advantaged in society comes from those with a Faith base and that most hospitals were initially conceptualised, built,staffed and run by people precisely because they did have a religious Faith.

I know, they're such caring people. Thank goodness for the Magdalen asylums. I expect every one of the 30,000 people they "looked after" was incredibly appreciative of the religious beliefs of those who ran them.

Vintage, what is the basis for your claim that calling the flatmates liars is evidence of "vitriol and hatred"? It's a purely factual term. They told lies repeatedly. They are liars.

As for your suggestion that they had a duty to follow their personal morality, I'm sorry, but I find it difficult to respect the morals of someone who doesn't think it immoral to lie about another person in order to try to justify themselves.