Women's safety in Europe after Cologne

[DavidTCDaviesMP]

I have been invited onto Mumsnet to discuss the situation for women in Europe following the attacks in Cologne, and the challenge we face in Europe in trying to help millions of mainly young men, who are arriving in Europe from cultures which treat women very differently. I believe this is an issue which needs open discussion by political leaders yet is swept under the carpet. David Davies MP

omg, some serious derailing by a certain poster here. She is on a mission. I have asked her to suggest strategies to educate men who have grown up to disrespect women and whose home countries facilitate sexism and violence against women structurally. But she has no interest in any of that. It seems
her only interest is in dishing out cliches about xenophobia and posting one-sided pro migration comments. She sounds a bit desperate and clouded by ideology.

Mavel I tried to engage in thread 1 and was ignored.

"some serious derailing by a certain poster here. She is on a mission. I have asked her to suggest strategies to educate men who have grown up to disrespect women "

Yes, mavelus that is the plan. As soon as a post or two 'nails it' so to speak it has to be shot down because no light can be shone on inconvenient truths.

We've all tried to post articles, reference materials and statistical data mavel but a certain poster either will not, or cannot read them. She has been invited, over approximately 9 threads on this subject, to offer solutions. Again, she either cannot or will not. But it's widely agreed that her rhetoric - for that's all it is - irritating and wearisome. But she's beginning to cross the line with her relentless pursuit of 1 particular poster and it may be appropriate to report her.

Sporting

I think the EU should work toward opening safe, legal channels for people to move through. The EU needs a common asylum policy.

I mentioned NUMEROUS times in previous threads the 'no excuses' campaign, started by German women. Their intention is to address the recent attacks in Cologne and other instances of sexual violence in Germany. They want to deal with the myriad reasons and factors for sexual violence.

This is an example of their ideas,

Monika Hauser,

'On January 13, 2016, I called on the Mayor of Cologne, Henriette Reker, to launch a model project with the name “Cologne – A city free of sexualised violence”. The role model here is a campaign organised by our sister organisation Olakh in India with the title “Let's be the first to make our city free of sexual harassment!”. When if not now – with the city’s Carnival just around the corner?'

They want to address

loopholes in the law governing sexual offences

awareness-raising training for police to help them protect everyone

consultation with women’s associations.

thorough investigation of the assaults in Cologne

widespread sexualised violence at public events, Oktoberfest or smaller affairs such as office parties

failures in the judicial system when it comes to prosecuting sexualised violence.

sophisticated and honest public debate on the roots and causes of sexualised violence

examination of misogynist attitudes and images in the media and advertising

analysis of traditional images of masculinity

safety in public spaces

Where are they going to move through to?

Thank you Emily, the project sounds good I hope they are pursuing it rigorously. It does sound ambitious but nothing less will do.

poster Emily, how do you think that sexist attitudes in men form MENA can be eradicated? Remember these are men who have gown up to believe in their superiority over all women and also to expect women to obey them. Many MENA men view European women as sluts who are there for the plucking. What are potential strategies to change their destructive mind set?

Thanks for the link, MoreShabby about the Austrian girl's rape. Truly horrific. And what is the upshot ..... a girl left traumatised for years to come and no consequences have befallen the savages who gang raped her.

A similar story yesterday Britt about a gang of rapists in Britain, now using human rights to fight deportation and trying to blame racism on his sentence. Sickening.

Cold yes we have been discussing strategies to found a private space to discuss this with those who are pro the petition, nuanced and difficult debate and have real concerns about the safety of women post-Cologne.

Which, to date, includes significant MPs, MEPs, journalists, academics, industry leaders and broadcasters. I am delighted by some brave, practical and robust responses to our concerns.

I will share details privately as and when we move forward to a sensible debate and plan. I have no wish to subject busy professionals to the possibility of being bleated at by the poster whose unhinged loose cannon attacks are transmogrifying from hilarious to boring.

In the meantime, the phrase 'their petition' pretty much summed up the antipathy towards protecting western freedoms, especially those enjoyed by women, children and free thinkers, from economic migrants who will bring mysogyny, inappropriate sexual ideas and no desire to integrate.

We are not, and never have been, including genuine refugees in that group.

There, that wasn't hard to grasp now was it?

Good work January. Thank you for what you are doing.

Many posters have asked direct questions such as yours mave, only to receive no reply if the answer requires going off the agenda. She will not admit that there is a cultural problem of misogyny in some men from MENA and therefore she won't or can't propose any possible solutions.

So why can we not join their concerns? We have all said we want there to be an end to sexual violence. We don't want a repeat of Cologne, that is what the petition was about. It was never about "Lets ban all refugees". If it brings about attention on all other spheres where sexual offences happen, good.

The petition is about women's safety. It's mentioned mysogyny in the media, perhaps it should be mysogyny in all areas of life both public and private and challenging the attitudes which lead to negative attitudes towards women's rights. That would include religion and culture as well I'm afraid. If we are going to challenge attitudes we need to do it wholesale otherwise it won't work.

Longway round

"Sigmar Gabriel, the vice chancellor, announced that Germany would place Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia on a list of “safe countries of origin” – meaning that migrants from those countries would have little chance of winning asylum"
www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/29/germany-tightens-borders-as-finland-joins-sweden-in-deporting-refugees

Merkel agrees Moroco is not a place to flee from, Maybe Merkel needs to chat to our Emily?

Amouse, no, I don't think Isis have much to do with Islam. I don't think Britain First are Christians either even though they use crosses and steal Christian verses for their ends

The most-articulate spokesmen for that position are the Islamic State’s officials and supporters themselves. They refer derisively to “moderns.” In conversation, they insist that they will not—cannot—waver from governing precepts that were embedded in Islam by the Prophet Muhammad and his earliest followers

The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic

the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam

Muslims can reject the Islamic State; nearly all do. But pretending that it isn’t actually a religious, millenarian group, with theology that must be understood to be combatted, has already led the United States to underestimate it and back foolish schemes to counter it

January please could you add me to your contact list, once you have the details to hand? I'd like to be involved in this. Thanks.

Sporting

'The discussion on sexualised violence must be led in an open and differentiated way, including the focus on sociocultural and ideological reasons for violence, and the stigmatisation of survivors'.

I think attention is paid to these factors, in addition to others.

ausnahmslos.org/english

'we have been discussing strategies to found a private space to discuss this with those who are pro the petition, nuanced and difficult debate and have real concerns about the safety of women post-Cologne.'

Yes January a place for pro the petition discussions would be nice. Your clear thinking and organised mind is very reassuring right now.

January - please keep me in the loop too. :)

None of the posts I have read on this thread come across as xenophobic. I have seen real bigotry and it is narrow minded and ugly.

This is a decent UNSESCO article on xenophobia

The second cause believed to reinforce xenophobia and racism is globalisation. Increased competition between states has led states to reduce their services in areas of social welfare, education and healthcare. This reduction influenced in particular the segments of the population living on the margins of society. These groups are often in direct competition with migrants for welfare service and are the main breeding ground for xenophobic and racist ideologies. Research has shown that severe economic inequalities and the marginalization of persons from access to basic economic and social conditions give rise to tensions and manifestations of racism and xenophobia.

It looks more like female European citizens are currently competing with male MENA nationals for use of public space in Europe. As male MENA nationals enter Europe and access schools, swimming pools, parks, public transport a proportion of MENA men act out their misogynist attitudes and invade women's personal spaces by groping and raping therefore pushing female European out of pubic spaces. Women must fight to keep their share of pubic spaces.

This thread is not xenophobic at all. It is more a concerted effort to draw out specific gender-based, cultural issues which are contributing to a new and dangerous form of sexual violence, often conducted by gangs and targeting victims of all ages. It addresses there sheer callousness of some migrant men and their obvious loyalties to their own communities over loyalty to civil society as a diverse whole.

mavel

Ok, as I said our petition takes this into consideration too, we can look at other factors across the board as well. The petition after all is primarily about women's safety. Why don't we hook up with these ladies and offer our support?

We have repeatedly said we want an open discussion on the sociological, cultural and ideological reasons of this sexual violence.

Basically we've been saying what can be done about men who have religious and cultural reasons why they have certain views of women and especially western women and have used this to justify treating women in a certain manner.

This is what our petition has been about, not, not granting those refugees who are in need safe asylum and settlement in Europe or indeed help wherever their location.

"a site comprised of many thousands of mainly women, all of whom I imagine, like us, care about the safety of women- including themselves, their mothers, sisters and daughters"

Utter bullshit Many women dont care about other women. Thats why we have got middle class feminists cheering on the cutting of things like tax credits which would affect working class women/feminists. Those tax credits could make the difference to someone being able to AFFORD to get home safely after a shift rather than walking because it would save what little wage they do get paid . You know ppl like care workers who care for the elderly relatives of ppl so those ppl can go out and earn their mega bucks.

If someone is attacked THAT IS ENTIRELY THE FAULT OF THE ATTACKER. But being able to afford to get home safely minimizes the risk.

No wonder many working class women cant relate to feminism. Maybe just maybe if more so called feminists who are higher up the socio economic scale actually included working class women instead of cheering on trying to make them poorer many more working class feminists would feel more included and more likely to engage in feminism which would/could have meant more signatures to the petition than have been received so far!

Many of my DH female colleagues had to start walking when the bus service changed companies and the cost went up dramatically. Their wages didn't cover it, not all of them qualify for wtc as the live with partners. They often have to walk through unsafe areas at around 5 in the morning or after 10 at night. Campaigning for safe transport would go a long way in this case. There did use to be company funded transport, but they cut it a while back. Women's safety is often the lowest priority.

I think the best thing we can do is remain a vocal movement at all times on the issue.

Talking of the issue there was an article on bbc about rape culture in U.S. Colleges. So women's safety and freedom needs to be a priority in every culture.

Can you put me on your list too please January?

There was a BBC programme about the attacks in Cologne - did anybody watch it? Was it actually critical, or was it more hand wringing nonsense and obstruction about thr men's backgrounds?