Women's safety in Europe after Cologne

[DavidTCDaviesMP]

I have been invited onto Mumsnet to discuss the situation for women in Europe following the attacks in Cologne, and the challenge we face in Europe in trying to help millions of mainly young men, who are arriving in Europe from cultures which treat women very differently. I believe this is an issue which needs open discussion by political leaders yet is swept under the carpet. David Davies MP

"Cellar, those attacks are organised attacks by neo Nazis. One man almost died. It makes me sick that you are justifying it. You are an apologist for neo Nazis. Many frustrating things happen in our lives. Do those things mean we can then go and kick the life out of someone until they are unconscious? Violence is not an inevitable response to a difficult situation."

Unfortunately, history has shown otherwise. Create a situation like the one in Calais, and violence is inevitable. I'm not defending anyone, it's horrific to do that to a person. I wouldn't do that to someone, and I'm not a neo nazi sympathiser or apologist, despite what accusations you throw around.

The sad fact is there are a lot of people who resort to violence and a situation like this is like a powder keg to them.

The situation there has allowed support for these groups to thrive among the general population of Calais. If no one will listen to them, if they are called racist if they object to 18,000 mostly young men roaming their streets and in some cases attacking people then they will turn to the far right. In the end, everyone suffers.

Oh and other posters were called mentally ill in one of the earlier threads by one of your supporters. I think the phrase was they may need to "talk to someone in real life". Incidentally, I didn't see you objecting to that at the time?

Sporting, saying there will always be a fascist movement is quite different to saying the attacks at Calais were 'inevitable' because local people are disgruntled.

I think the things Britt comes out with bear a great deal of similarity to the words spouted by the organisations you mention.

it is heartening that their petition hasn't recieved much support the reason for the petition was to protect women all over the world from sexual attacks, that includes all the women you profess to be so concerned about, it also includes you and your daughter. To say what you did about the people who are actually trying to do some good for ALL women, Emily you actually disgust me.

It is amazing how when you point out some the things being said on here and hold a light to them, you get told your are derailing and nitpicking.
Sadly there is a growing movement, way beyond this thread, to scapegoat and dehumanise migrants and refugees. I think it comes from fear at base

^ this is the BIG problem.

Emily said few threads back Islam was nothing to do with ISIS.

WE all know this isn't true.

A very clear in depth article from the Atlantic which clearly shows the deep connection ISIS AND Islam has was linked to show Emily.

She ignored it. She didn't comment on it. She has done this through out all the threads.

It kind of ruins any credibility she has.

I have seen nearly every poster at some point declare something they have done for refugees, either collections or going to the camps or supporting charities that help Syrian Refugees.
There is a difference between a Syrian Refugee fleeing war and a Morocan chancer who is essentially an economic migrant.

Emily has insisted on calling economic migrants - refugees and has not made that distinction.

Twisted you and a few others have put opposing views across, does anyone complain about you?

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3450372/Teenage-migrant-dragged-14-year-old-Austrian-schoolgirl-toilet-cubicle-GANG-RAPED-five-friends-revenge-dumped-set-home-Britain.html and you Emily will probably pleased this nice young man has been given a well deserved home in Britain.

No emily those organisations are a lot more hard hitting in their rhetoric than Britt.

It is inevitable that the far right will get involved in Calais because of the nature of the issues. It is unfortunate but true. People from that movement wait for issues like this to come up. They also don't need excuses to exist, they just do. I've been on demos where I've had to run from them, my husband also.

The local people will have issues as well, not all of them will be far right or want the far right people there either. I think many of them just want a solution for the good of all concerned as the situation can't continue as it is. I don't think any of them want violence.

Inkanta, I have mentioned nothing that is not here.

Cellar, this is what you said,

'Have you read about how the residents of Calais feel and what they have to put up with Twisted? There is no excuse for the attacks but they are inevitable when residents feel that they are basically under siege and aren't receiving any help. The authorities have a lot to answer for that they have let the situation there deteriorate so far.

No mention here of the wider context where the far right flourish. Here you insinuate that the attacks are understandable because of people 'being under seige', not 'recieving help.' That is apologism, because you suggested ordinary residents of Calais may resort to extreme violence because of the circumstances at Calais. You say there are no excuses whilst making excuses.

'There are no excuses for the attacks but...'

and there you have it.

I don't know which comment said 'talk to someone in real life', but that clearly could mean talk to a PERSON in real life, with experience of a particular subject. It could mean anything really. Nowhere does it mention talking to a THERAPIST, which is the word used for me. Much more specific really and I can't believe objecting to prejudice and stereotyping these days means you need a therapist!

I don't have to resort to childish language, like calling posters 'helpers'. On the rare occasion someone appears to agree with me they are a 'helper'? Please.

Lumela, you state your resistance to the far right, whilst accepting far right tropes on here. I suppose they have become so normalised that for many people they don't stir much anxiety.

There is a lot misanthropic nonsense on this thread. If a British person moved from Carlisle to Cardiff to take up a new job and there wasn't a place for their child at the local school, who would you blame? If public services are not fulfilling peoples' needs, why not blame the government, not the immigrants? Some have argued on this thread that immigrants will strain resources, but surely the strain is down to a lack of investment?

There are concerns expressed here about housing but newcomers are mostly not entitled to social housing. There is not a lot of social housing because much of it has been sold off and ardly any new ones built.

Three-quarters of Britain is agricultural land. Building 3 million new homes at the government's target density would take up only 0.3 per cent of the UK's land area -- and much less if houses were built on brownfield sites.

Sporting, however much you profess to like Akala, I think he would also be horrified by Britt's statements that some ethnicities are disruptive in school and don't want to learn. Part of his ancestry were stereotyped in the same way. However, I think he probably isn't a mumsnetter so we'll never know.

No, they meant speak to a health professional about their so called paranoia issues. That was made clear at the time and they were called out for their gaslighting. So it isn't just you.

Cellar, it sounds like that was related to the behaviour then that Twisted and I experienced when posters suggested we were 'working for someone' and other strange claims, like me being a man. Does it not seem paranoid to you that people suggest I am 'working for someone' and not an ordinary mumsnetter?

Emily - you are way over the top, and extreme and relentless with it.

I personally wish you would leave the thread so that we can get the focus back on women. Women and women's rights. Protecting European women whatever that may take.

Xenophobia and hysteria protect noone moreshabby and the petition is inextricably linked to both.

Amouse, no, I don't think Isis have much to do with Islam. I don't think Britain First are Christians either even though they use crosses and steal Christian verses for their ends.

'Morocan chancer who is essentially an economic migrant'.

I don't feel the need to make a distinction really as both categories cross over sometimes and I sympathise with both. Additionally, what do you know about Morocco? If someone is unsafe there and treated badly they can be a refugee too or asylum seeker.

The hysteria and panic surrounding both groups doesn't make sense to me. Both groups seem desperate for a better life, some in Europe. 340,000 people attempted to enter the European Union in 2015 in July. That compares with 280,000 in total the previous year. But the EU spans 28 countries with 508 million people, so the new arrivals in 2015 only make up 0.07 percent of the population.

However, I believe that most ARE seeking safety. Most of those seeking refuge in Europe are coming from Syria, Afghanistan, and Eritrea. Syrians are fleeing a murderous civil war and Islamic State. Afghanistan, is unsafe because of the Taliban, together with its al Qaeda allies, and the Islamic State’s local affiliate. Eritrea is a brutal dictatorship.

The United Nations’ refugee agency, UNHCR, states that the world is experiencing its biggest refugee crisis since World War II. It counts 59.5 million forcibly displaced people worldwide. They include 19.5 million refugees (of whom 14.4 million fall under the UNHCR’s mandate and the remaining 5.1 million are Palestinian), 1.8 million asylum-seekers, and 38.2 million people displaced within their own countries.

I don't understand the hysteria and panic because this global refugee crisis mostly affects countries outside prosperous, secure Europe. Six of every seven refugees are in poor countries. Turkey hosts 1.6 million, more than the 1.5 million scattered across Europe. Tiny Lebanon has received 1.2 million — that’s more than one refugee for every four local people. Meanwhile, Britain and people on this thread are in a frenzy over some 3,000 people in Calais.

The numbers seeking refuge in Europe are also small compared with the many millions of Europeans displaced after World War II and the millions more who moved after the collapse of communism and the wars in the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s. Europeans forget very quickly!

Isis are trying to set up an Islamic caliphate and bring about the final battle/Armageddon as predicted in the Koran. They rule their territories in accordance with sharia law. They take non Muslim women as slaves as sanctioned in the Koran. They murder infidels and apostates for not being Muslim. They murder other Muslims who they do not see as following the correct path of Islam.

Of course, these things are nothing to do with Islam at all.

Emily I don't profess to like Akala, I do, have done for many years. I did not at any point say I agreed with the statement, neither did Britt. For what it's worth poor white boys apparently do worst in school, there is a lot of stereotyping of chavs etc.

Saying who does worse and discussing outcomes is completely different. I see the sense in that. Saying an ethnic group don't want to learn whilst outlining the immigrant groups you believe do want to learn and saying some ethnic groups are disruptive is not the same.

What do you think Britt's motivation in posting tese 'anecdotes' is?

She posted one anecdote, she has posted other different stuff which has a different slant. You've attacked other posters including myself, accusing us of being racist.

Did you mean to be so rude, or does it come naturally?

Emily do not patronise me and call me hysterical. Your arrogant, smug attitude will not save you when they come for you and yours, to them you are just the means to an end like the rest of us and you are no better than anyone else.

Right now the only people I am worried about coming for me and mine are those threatening my other half for helping refugees thanks moreshabby.

'Your arrogant, smug attitude will not save you when they come for you and yours, to them you are just the means to an end like the rest of us and you are no better than anyone else'.

Do you think you sound calm and reasonable here moreshabby?

You've really got it in for Brittany haven't you Emily? You've made so many posts where you've either misquoted her, insulted her, called her names or accused her of bigotry. It's like your either obsessed with her or you're bullying her, I'm not sure which yet. But I'm going to keep a close eye on your ramblings from now on and I WILL report you if you continue your apparent vendetta.

So the women in Cologne deserved what happened? The lady in Sweden too? It's just collaterall damage I guess, after all they had no more right to peaceful lives than anyone. It was unfortunate but after all we all have to die sometime and you can't always be safe can you?

Provide an example of a misquote please ohfor. There aren't any. I'm not obsessed with her, I'm disturbed by the nature of her posts and the blinkered attitude of other posters to them.

When has anyone said they deserved it sporting or that it is collateral damage? When has anyone mentioned dying?

What then do you believe should happen to prevent the events that happened, happening again? What steps would you take to ensure safety for all if you were in charge in a large event where there was going to be this mix of people?

I was referring to the fact that the lady in Sweden did in fact die and it's possible it could happen again.

Public safety is for the benefit of all migrant and non migrant alike, how would you ensure this?

I am very calm and reasonable under the circumstances of being goaded, called names and patronised.

Emily:
'Morocan chancer who is essentially an economic migrant'.

I don't feel the need to make a distinction really as both categories cross over sometimes and I sympathise with both. Additionally, what do you know about Morocco? If someone is unsafe there and treated badly they can be a refugee too or asylum seeker.

I live in Morocco. I know some of these economic migrants, and yes, the ones who rushed to take advantage of Germany's open doors policy are chancers for whom I have no sympathy at all. They are taking resources which should be used to help genuine refugees. Many of them lie about their age, so in addition they are taking resources which should be used to help refugee children. I am aghast that you can see no difference between these young men, and people escaping war and destruction.

I have posted several links to articles which are relevant in this context, but it appears that you have not bothered to look at them. Mouse has - I know, because she responded to them.

By the way, the people at risk of being badly treated here are more likely to be gay activists, political journalists, and film makers and actors who portray aspects of society which are disapproved of.

I've followed this thread and the other threads since the horrendous attacks on women in Cologne. It's very hard to see any progress in the discussions when Emily is such a relentless blind defender of the indefensible. It's tiring to read the majority of posters wading through treacle. Might I suggest starting a new thread and agreeing not to engage with Emily? It would be good to see this very important discussion brought back on track