Women's safety in Europe after Cologne

[DavidTCDaviesMP]

I have been invited onto Mumsnet to discuss the situation for women in Europe following the attacks in Cologne, and the challenge we face in Europe in trying to help millions of mainly young men, who are arriving in Europe from cultures which treat women very differently. I believe this is an issue which needs open discussion by political leaders yet is swept under the carpet. David Davies MP

I didn't see it Hermione , do you know when it was aired? Might be able to find it on I player.

And if their partners wages are also low it makes it even harder.

Well if it's the Stacey Dooley one then I've watched it.

It was 13 minutes long and took 10 minutes before it began to focus on what happened to the actual women. The rest of it was about the backlash against the migrants and how the vast majority of migrants are peaceful.

And they were always very careful to say that the attacks were "blamed on migrants" rather than actually perpetrated by migrants.

So yes, hand-wringing.

Oh to live in a world where women could walk safely at any time.

Add me to your list please January.

Could you add me to the list too please January?

Add me to the list January. It is getting beyond stupid when you get attacked for just about everything you say. I've particularly tried to be balanced and fair to all, but balanced and fair is not what one poster requires, it's all or nothing to one way. It's fair to say I've found some of the attitude of this one poster quite offensive, she has tried to close down any discussion of a different viewpoint. Many of the posters on here have been involved in helping the refugees (we don't all broadcast it, that would seem like crowing and boasting "oh look at me, I'm so good").

I care about freedom and safety and hope for all of us, whatever skin colour, creed, gender, sexuality we are. We are all human beings and that is what is precious in my eyes, we all have something to contribute to our world. I don't believe that the rights of any one group are more important than those of another, or that we should sacrifice the wellbeing of some human beings for that of another group.

We should all talk about the issues, no matter how difficult. The practical solutions are more difficult in this instance. Older men will be difficult to change, little boys you have a chance with but it depends on the support of community leaders and home environments. Things can change but it will be gradual and not always easy.

We should always speak out where we feel that there is injustice. I see Egypt has shut a treatment centre that treats victims of torture. I feel very strongly about that. I feel even more strongly about torture but I do know that organisations such as Amnesty are campaigning and we all add our voices.

Can I be added to the list?

Please add me too January

Just read the ausnahmslos report and one of the things that struck me was that they call for no victim blaming. In connection with Cologne there was victim blaming from certain quarters, that women should take care how they dress, where they go, to keep men at arms length, stay in safe places. One Imam said they were to blame because they wore perfume, wore normal western clothes and were out at night.

The women in question were dressed in normal clothes many of them in jeans and thick coats, some were with male companions, they were in a crowded public square. The standard advice to women used to be, stay in crowded places and well lit places, don't be alone, be aware of any signals you may give which maybe misconstrued. They were still attacked. Which gives the message, don't go out at all, especially at night. So women should effectively be prisoners.

I do agree that no one ethnicity is to blame for overall sexual violence, but in this case it was a new modus operandi and was largely carried out by males of a broadly similar background. This may be why the German current laws were not up to scratch in dealing with this, it had not been seen in this way before.

One of the other points I wholly agree with them on was it was not about sex, it was about control, they wanted to control where women could be, how they dressed and what activities they can participate in. Why they are doing this? Because it is what is normal for them? Because it was distraction to take property? Because they wish to have an environment that feels comfortable for them?

Not every refugee/migrant feels this way that is clear and pretty much all posters are clear on this, same way we don't feel every Muslim person fits a particular box, or everyone in the west fits a neat box. Not everybody questioning migration is a neo-nazi. We would like our governments to do more to help people at first point of contact when they come over the Syrian border. We do want clear asylum and migration policy, that may mean many are turned away and the neediest and most vulnerable helped first.

canadafreepress.com/article/muslim-prayers-take-over-un-general-assembly-area

I am thinking more about shared spaces being taken over. Muslims have permanently booked fridays for Muslim prayer the meditation room at the NY UN headquarter. There is an ecumenical “meditation room” – without religious markings designed by former UN Secretary-General Dag Hammarskjold in (an amazing man) 1957. The idea is that anyone can use the room at any time, together, not about providing a designated space for one religion. This sort of stuff is what I take issue with. Living in a diverse society as we do means that everyone has to exercise tolerance and accept difference. During friday afternoons, UN employees who would like to meditate or pray and are not muslim are prevented from doing so. I don't think this was what Hammarskjold had in mind. It's the same in British, European, American and Canadian Universities. It's the Muslim interest groups that are operating in a silencing and dominating way. I am all for diversity and Globalisation is given but everyone must adhere to the rules of the game. No group is a 'special snowflake'.

Then we need to stop them. They are not special. In fact they are wrong (there is no God). So we need to continue being tolerant as the English always are and polite - it is our way but don't allow taking over of shared religious spaces if that is happening.

I am sure most of us who live around people of all faiths and types as I do find most of our neighbours pretty kind to each other. Most humans are but where one religion or group starts to take away women's rights we have to draw the line and come down hard on what is usually young men doing this kind of groping and worse.

mavel That's interesting given the demographics of both the UN and the building's physical location. Friday afternoon is often when Jewish workers will group together to have a social/thoughtful time before finishing up work and shabbat. Jews marginalised by the UN - oh my!

January Put me on your list please.

One of the over arching questions I have at the moment -and hope that those in power and in the know are addressing-- is: what strategies can we as a liberal, democratic western society come up with in order to protect a liberal, democratic western way of life in a globalised world with mass migration?

As ever I believe that world class education, reasonable employment for all sectors of society, a social safety net for those who are not able to work due to ill health. Promoting entrepreneurship and protecting public spaces. What else?

"During friday afternoons, UN employees who would like to meditate or pray and are not muslim are prevented from doing so."

Unfortunately, mavelus many organisations appear to have caved in to this faith's demands because the muslims say that Friday is non-negotiable, the room has to be theirs. However, I note that some hospital users in England who want to use the Multi-Faith Room for reflection, prayer, to cry were made to feel uncomfortable and as if they should not be there. I did write to the Chief Exec of my local hospital who did write assuring me that the room is for everyone's use but they were considering looking for space within the hospital to provide a separate room for the Muslim Faith because - their reason - "the family group attending may be larger ....." . It has not happened as yet.

I know some of you love anecdotes and tales from the ground. I've known 3 people who've worked at that UN building - one going back over 20 years. 2 of the 3 were working primarily on the "people with the cultural problems" liaising with NY but boots on the ground in "challenging" countries. The third has an exceptionally interesting background which I daren't elaborate on , and is a Swede (woman) who has chosen to no longer live there!

Why do some muslims view people of other faiths and no faith as somehow 'contaminating'? Surely thats a very ungenerous way to view your fellow human beings? I don't view other human beings as that. I don't even view the people I know primarily in relation to their country of origin/ethnicity/religion. I tend to view them for the individual they are, like A's mum has a lovely smile, B is very laid back etc.

What about the needs of someone who may feel so uncomfortable they go and cry in a corridor instead, is there just no sympathy for them from this grouping or is it 'hard luck, but we come first'?

Most non muslims seem to have no issue sharing as long as there is a good amount of space for all to be comfortable.

Mavelus - The assailants on NY Eve knew that women do not like being molested, felt up or raped. They know it already. Therefore education will take more than one generation - and even then, the misogyny will continue. What man is going to relinquish believing that he is not only superior to a woman but that she is worthless? Woman is for the house, to carry children and to do what man says.

The only means to protect women that I can see is for there to be consequences for the man. The law of the land has to be reinforced each time he offends. He will nevertheless continue to believe he is superior and has the right to fondle strangers, but at least he may start to desist from misbehaving because it would cause too many ructions in his own family, time in jail or a heavy fine (if he's working), time away from his own kids, etc. But there has to be joined-up thinking on this, extra manpower and swift response on the street to women crying for help. In the courts, no airy-fairy excuses by judges. Each country will have to decide whether groping, for example, is a misdemeanour and does not produce a criminal record, otherwise he will have the excuse not to look for work (as no employer will hire).

Since the 1960s we in the West have done our journey thru the worst of the misogyny, but now it seems women have to go on red alert again, and nations have to spend money educating thousands of foreign men how to behave decently towards women. I am very resentful of this. We in the UK have already imported so many misogynists.

I was thinking of this thread because I read about what Emma Thompson was wittering on about on Tuesday yesterday. She described Britain's attitude to Germany after the war as 'fascistic' and criticised any sense of British pride in defeating the Nazis as 'brainwashing' and insisted that the 'German's felt just as invaded by the Nazi's as anybody else'.

Of course this is absolute revisionist nonsense. There were pockets of resistance, yes, but the Nazis were initially democratically elected and were widely popular. Following the war a long and arduous process of denazification had to take place precisely because so many German's supported the Nazis so much.

But this seems to be a general left wing way of thinking at the moment (as demonstrated by some on this thread). That people aren't responsible for ideas or the way society is shaped. It's the same about the ME and NA. The left seems to believe that these areas are populated by left wing secular feminists and crowds of new men, who just want to live in secular left wing democracies, who are being oppressed by ideas which have literally come out of the earth rather than being the result of any sort of human agency. They don't seem to understand that many of these places are the way they are because ideas about religious repression, repression of women, repression of minorities are tacitly accepted by wide swathes of the population. And that doesn't change just because they enter the EU. There is no personal responsibility or culpability, everything is the fault of 'society'. But this ignores the fact society is made up of lots of individuals.

Interestingly, they don't seem to transfer this lack of personal responsibility to their own societies, where they're happy to label 'Tory scum' and silence opponents with no platforming and Twitter mobs which persecute those they perceive to have transgressed.

Again, I find this another type of left wing racism. They deny any sort of personal agency, responsibility or capacity for independent though to those who are not western. Yes it suits their purposes. But it also ignores the fact that people who are not western can independently have any sort of view which doesn't chime with the left wing orthodoxy which they all need to be educated in as little empty vessels waiting to be filled. Very paternalistic and imperialist type of attitude IMO.

Even our cemeteries are divided, not just multi-faith quiet rooms. This is in my own borough:

"X Cemetery is the newest of X cemeteries, opening in 1974. It has 22 acres of ground but only 10 set out for cemetery purposes at present. The cemetery has been designed to accommodate the burial of X’s growing Muslim population. The Muslim sections are laid out with the graves orientated towards Mecca – a necessary religious requirement. There are also sections for other denominations."

This means that graves facing East are automatically reserved for Muslims. If you wanted to buy a grave in that spot and are non-muslim you could not. By stating that facing Mecca is a religious requirement, the Council dodges accusations of reserving land specifically for one group.

BillSykes Yes, it's as if the Emma Thompson types cannot accept unpleasant truths, such as of course the Nazi Party was popular at that time.

I heard that Stephen Fry had to delete his Twitter account because of the hysterical outrage (on someone else's behalf) when Fry called a female friends of his "a bag lady". She was not insulted, because this is the friendly batter that occurs between friends - but thousands of morons were!

Sporting, many other faiths do too when they are fundamentalist. I have just been reading some books by ex fundamentalist mormons - FLDS. They are the same. They think they are the chosen people. Same with born again Christians - they believe you go to hell if you aren't saved and that that includes all other Christians who aren't their brand.

I do hope people on the thread vote to stay in the EU. It is one of our best means of ensuring unity amongst those of us who share Western liberal values.

Yes as someone who was very goth I was often harassed by people who were born again Christian - accused of human sacrifice etc.

I don't think some other very religious people are overkeen on me now because I don't fit in their boxes. But live and let live is my motto.

I do hope people on the thread vote to stay in the EU. It is one of our best means of ensuring unity amongst those of us who share Western liberal values

I agree completely with this sentiment but I wonder what liberal values are shared by the political class of Europe given the events in Cologne and subsequent worrying denial, manipulation of media and crime statistics Europe-wide and ask myself whose liberties are being protected? As a woman, I'm no longer certain.

Except, Deo the worst I have heard a Christian fundamentalist doing is shooting abortion doctors. And being harassed, sporting by the Born Agains hardly equates to the terrorist outrages, or the Mumbai killings in 2008, etc.